Sabina Higgins Letter to Irish Times calling for ceasefire on Ukraine

fly_agaric · 04-08-2022 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426859#Comment_119426859

Alot of "fun" is had by Danzy castigating Germany and France naming them "Putin's Allies" (not Italy before though, what has Mario Draghi done/not done!?!) elsewhere on this forum and he's just continuing the tradition.

However the 3 countries do give alot of aid to Ukraine and plenty of that has been military aid. Going by that letter to the editor, could we hazard Sabina Higgins may not agree with this (or would not do same if in their shoes + having their power)?

3 of them have also been consistent in condemning Russia's invasion and putting the onus on Putin/Russia rather than Zelensky/Ukraine to make the "peace" if there is to be one.

...edit: Anyway, this all seems a bit mad and pointless dragging them in for comparison with her...like comparing/contrasting my (or other random posters) opinions on these events say to that of a world leader or the Pope or something!

Brucie Bonus · 04-08-2022 12:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427407#Comment_119427407

What part of an end to killings says...

allow Russia to continue their campaign of murder...

..to you? Its quite obviously the now common jaded effort of attacking people by claiming they support or are okay with Putin invading and killing.

mazdamiatamx5 · 04-08-2022 12:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426458#Comment_119426458

Yes, he has, and he has been consistently vindicated (he was an early sceptic regarding the Global War on Terror thingummy ).

Jenkins is of course not remotely left wing. He’s a traditional (ie, not neocon) conservative. He was one of the chief mourners at Lord Brittans funeral.

The Guardian has been consistently pushing war porn from day one at least of this conflict. They might have one or two individual commentators who are sceptical but that’s it.

The support from Russia mostly comes from the right, Trumpists and similar. You have the odd extreme left idiot like Corbyn.

HerrKuehn · 04-08-2022 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427606#Comment_119427606

Plenty of support for Russia from the left, traditionally a lot more than the right. There are a lot of left wing idiots who are so against what they see as "Western Imperialism" that they are quite supportive of other types of actual imperialism.

HerrKuehn · 04-08-2022 12:31pm

If anything good comes from this, hopefully Sabina gets the ridiculous notion of being Ireland's "First Lady" out of her head. It isn't the United States, we don't have a first lady. I think living in what amounts to a palace for the last 12 years on her husband's salary and various pensions have had an effect on her grasp of reality. Hopefully MDH can get back to his actual job, hosting dinner parties for visiting dignitaries and regaling them with tales of Cu Chulainn and the like.

Podge_irl · 04-08-2022 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427600#Comment_119427600

If she desires not just a ceasefire, but for the Russian armed forces to stop acting like they have been since the outset of this conflict (and many others most likely) with regard to the occupied areas then she is living even more in la la land than I originally thought. It is the very definition of an empty platitude.

A simple ceasefire on current lines just solidifies territory Russia has stolen. It allows them to regroup and rearm without having their logistics under constant attack. It allows them to continue their genocidal efforts without worrying about being attacked. They would like nothing more right now.

A ceasefire that also involves the thousands upon thousands of international overseers and attendant military forces to stop Russia engaging in their "russification" efforts in the occupied areas is a ludicrous pipe dream.

Brucie Bonus · 04-08-2022 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427868#Comment_119427868

I agree. I disagree with her and think she is naive. I do not think she supports the subjugation of the Ukrainians in currently occupied territory.

Yurt2 · 04-08-2022 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428001#Comment_119428001

The truth is her opinion really should have been kept to herself. She has the right to send correspondence to the Irish Times, but she should have had the wisdom not to have done so.

She brought controversy upon the office of the President and brought government foreign policy into disrepute. It was taken up by the Ambassador of a belligerent country in a state of war as a propaganda opportunity - a war the government has a clear policy and stance on.

Not acceptable, and playing doddery chattering class dinner party luvvie after the fact does not cut it in the least.

Podge_irl · 04-08-2022 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428001#Comment_119428001

Oh I don't think she does either. I just think she hasn't really thought her position through very well.

Pussyhands · 04-08-2022 2:01pm

https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1555102962623594496?t=3BWDIRf0-ceh-wdfJ_TnaQ&s=19

Shame on Amnesty International for saying things that will be supported by the Russians I guess?

As we all know, no one can say any thing remotely negative about Ukraine without being called a Russian asset or putin supporter..

04-08-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427550#Comment_119427550

Presumably you failed to notice that that editorial - unlike Dame Edna's witless handwringing - wasn't uploaded to the Presidential website?

Alternatively, you're incapable of understanding what this controversy is about.

04-08-2022 2:30pm

I bet Franke Clarke and Peter Kelly, the Dubai Duo (wtf?), are delighted with most of the focus being on our very own PR-crafted Eleanor Roosevelt - getting a hell of a kicking in the Irish Times Letters page.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/2022/08/04/peace-talks-and-negotiated-settlements/

“Who would quibble with a desire, as expressed by Ms Coyne Higgins, to see this happen now, not then?” The answer is the government and people of Ukraine would quibble and they would be right to do so."

"Ms Coyne Higgins should “stop digging” now. "

A sea-change for the IT who normally demur from such strong opinions being expressed about a national treasure?

Clearly, the PR handlers and digital media consultants will get orders to reign in the President completely now - which is unfair.

Jim_Hodge · 04-08-2022 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428414#Comment_119428414

I can't agree it's a sea-change for the Irish Times. Their letters page often has such comments about many situations, organisations and individuals. They are noticeably even handed in that respect.

Podge_irl · 04-08-2022 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428213#Comment_119428213

Do they think if Ukraine withdraws anti-air systems and troops from cities that the Russians will then leave them alone?

Again, they are not a "Russian asset" just stupidly naïve

Brucie Bonus · 04-08-2022 3:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428054#Comment_119428054

Agreed. I've just issue with people inferring things it doesn't state.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428091#Comment_119428091

Yes. She would have been better to keep it simple and just call for a ceasefire and talks, which is generally how these things end.

That said, if I was a Ukrainian I'd be all on for taking back Crimea too.

Podge_irl · 04-08-2022 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428679#Comment_119428679

Yes. She would have been better to keep it simple and just call for a ceasefire and talks, which is generally how these things end.

They are, but you don't really get to skip the bits beforehand. While undoubtedly many conflicts go on far longer than they need to, the results of the conflict have a massive outsized effect on the negotiations afterwards. Short of Russia agreeing a withdrawal to Feb 23rd lines (which they won't do), there really isn't all that much to discuss until there is more clarity about what both countries are still capable of militarily. This is why Ukraine does not want a ceasefire and talks now, and we should not be castigating them for this view nor pressuring them.

It is also worth remembering the article to which she wrote this letter in response. It was one stating that Western power need to maintain support for Ukraine despite potential furthering hardships coming our way. In that context it also very much seems like she opposes enabling Ukraine to continue to defend themselves.

Dyr · 04-08-2022 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427570#Comment_119427570

.

Theres an infographic of aid going to Ukraine, you may notice that the powerhouses of the EU are really lagging behind the Anglosphere and other European countries

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

Macron et al were constantly carping on about not "humiliating" Russia, giving them an off ramp, pushing negotiations for Ukraine. They only gave up on that when it became obvious even to them that Putin had played them like fiddles

So yeah, the real fun here is watching posters try rewrite recent history to cover the blushes of their betters on the continent

WJL · 04-08-2022 3:40pm

I think there has been a gradual cheapening of our Presidency over the past decade.

For about the last seven years or so MDH has been on Tubridy's Late Late at least once a year. He's on as often as the RTE canteen staff, Dermot Bannon, Francis Brennan, Pat Shortt, Brian Dowling, Mario Rosenstock etc. And that spoofer and faux intellect Imelda May.

He's given a light fluffy interview, usually directed at showcasing his 'humour' and kindly grandfather nature. An affable intellect, the voice and soul of the nation. It's well choreographed PR.

I'm 46 and was young during Patrick Hillery's last term up to 1990, but I don't think he had a regular Late Late slot. Or the Marys when in office. Mary Robinson had a Den appearance as a candidate, but in Office she was dignified.

Late Late appearances were for major stars and public figures in the Gay Byrne era, Peter Ustinov, Pele, Mother Teresa etc. In the Tubridy era we have Doireann Garrihy, the Operation Transformation leaders, Amy Huberman, lesser knowns with something to sell mostly. And this is where Higgins regularly takes the Presidency.

Snooker Loopy · 04-08-2022 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427541#Comment_119427541

But Ukraine isn't alone. It has the back up of the nations with the most advanced weaponries in the world, who are arming them, and rightly so.

Who are youse lot to tell them they shouldn't use it to stop themselves being genocided?

And that WILL be the outcome of "stopping the fighting". Thus there is no option for Ukraine to stop fighting. They HAVE to fight.

Dempo1 · 04-08-2022 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428260#Comment_119428260

Why would a national Newspaper editorial be uploaded to the Aras website, genuinely curious 🤔 Gosh, I better check, Sabina's personal section which has been there since 2014 maybe it was

Yurt2 · 04-08-2022 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428213#Comment_119428213

Amnesty international are drips that lost their way a long time ago.

They are not conducting a war of national survival in difficult urban environments.

They can say what they want but it does not make them the moral authority on anything or experts on the laws of war.

Strumms · 04-08-2022 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425059#Comment_119425059

not from the Aras and it’s occupiers…it’s not what they are there to do.

Elected members of Dáil Éireann on the other hand, the citizens on the other hand…..can and do,

growleaves · 04-08-2022 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428884#Comment_119428884

I'm not "youse lot" and I didn't call for a ceasefire.

What I've been saying is that the calls for a ceasefire are not unthinkable. Mainstream Euro leaders have called for one, and Z may go for one if/when he thinks it's the best move.

The dynamics of a small country vs. a big one make that more likely imo and I gave a historical example. NATO are sending weapons but it is still a small country fighting a bigger one.

Though the timing is bad by S. Higgins since Z said in late July that now is a bad time for Ukraine to agree to a ceasefire.

Obviously there is little prospect of Ukrainian tanks rolling into Moscow so it will not end the way WWII ended with the occupation of Berlin you must realise that.

04-08-2022 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428660#Comment_119428660

I’m surprised that yourself and the usual suspects on here haven’t started a thread calling for Amnesty to “clarify”, “apologise” and “resign”….

I’ll have SnookerLoopy telling me that Putin is forcing Zelensky to park his HIMARS in the kids’ playgrounds.

Everyone’s a “useful idiot” except you guys.

fly_agaric · 04-08-2022 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428749#Comment_119428749

Who put a coin in you? I did not rewrite any history. I believe your *own infographics* and the paper on that website show that the 3 countries have given Ukraine alot of both military and non military aid during this war.

I have not tried to praise their efforts above anyone else, or downplay the contributions of the "Anglosphere" as regards aid to Ukraine...