What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

They’re multicultural by your definition; that’s the key difference between your definition, and the many definitions of multiculturalism which are intended by others. Your definition is at best misleading, because it only recognises the idea of diverse groups which exist in any given society. It’s real “no shìt Sherlock!” stuff. It’s more commonly known as Tribalism, a concept which existed in human civilisation long before multiculturalism was ever even considered.

It’s why your classification of societies such as China and Russia as multicultural just doesn’t have any meaning. Multiculturalism isn’t just the observation that there exists distinct groups in any society. It’s how those groups are regarded in any given society, and whether or not they are discriminated against based upon their associations - as you did by suggesting that Rwanda is a multicultural society where there are population groups so different that they feel the need to massacre each other, as though Rwanda was ever a democracy in the first place! You’re not that dense, and I’m leaning heavily towards the idea that you know well you’re just trying to be clever. The UK Government thought they were being clever too with their Rwanda deal. That’s working out swell -

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/16/rwanda-president-suggests-uk-extradite-genocide-suspect-asylum-deal-paul-kagame

Since you use the example of Muslims in Russia, they’re not regarded as equals in Russian society either. Cue no surprise whatsoever that Putin is determined to see Islam eradicated from Russian society -

https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/is-russia-on-the-path-to-marginalising-its-muslim-population-23927/amp

And as for Chinese Muslims, @[Deleted User] already saw that one coming, as though the dominant culture in Chinese society oppressing any group who isn’t Han, and thereby presents an issue for Han ideas of what it means to be a Chinese national, is any meaningful measure of China being a multicultural society.

Multiculturalism is the idea of treating individuals within all groups in society as equals, and that’s it’s relationship to democracy - all people have an equal say in how they are governed, as opposed to the majority being able to determine the rights of the minority, and being able to introduce laws which disproportionately disadvantage their equal participation in society. That’s why there have been efforts similar to positive discrimination which favour people who belong to minority groups - to address the societal disadvantages they are subjected to by people belonging to the dominant culture.

The funny thing about the countries most racist/discriminatory against other ethnic groups, is that they're often very multicultural places with large representations of other ethnic groups living there. But again, the problem returns to the fact that there is always a dominant native culture, and foreign cultures have no real standing, except as temporary guests.

How are Uyghur Muslims in China “a foreign culture”? They’ve existed in China far longer than Han! “Temporary guests” my arse, it’s like calling travellers “a foreign culture” who have no real standing, except as temporary guests 🙄

Though I do agree that the idea is to breed them out of Chinese society, and by that standard, hardly an example of multiculturalism then when the idea is that policies exist which aim to make it as difficult as possible for them to maintain their distinct ethnic, cultural and religious identity. “Assimilation by elimination”, there’s a name for that sort of behaviour.

Imagine if anyone only had your experiences to rely on and didn’t ever meet anyone who grew up in China under their shìtty regime. They’d be forgiven for imagining China was some sort of Utopia on earth.

Eh? According to data from the CSO, which is substantially more accurate and objective than anecdotal evidence, the vast majority of people who are homeless, are Irish Roman Catholics with disabilities!

As can be seen in Figure 3.1, 84.6 per cent of homeless persons who lived in Dublin were Irish with 15.4 per cent non-Irish. For the rest of Ireland, 88.5 per cent of homeless persons were Irish, while 11.5 per cent were non-Irish.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp5hpi/cp5hpi/nat/

Those statistics on their own offer nothing in the way of any insight into multiculturalism, they only indicate what one would expect to see - the majority of people who are homeless are Irish, and non-Irish make up a minority of the homeless population.

It’s also nothing more than a simplistic argument with no substantial evidence to suggest that immigration is responsible for wage stagnation or rising costs of living. Each generation sets the bar for standards of living higher than previous generations in a capitalist economy that’s dependent upon consumerism funded by private debt. It stands to reason that the standards will be beyond the reach of the vast majority of the population, which motivates them to take on even more debt to fund a lifestyle they can ill-afford.

Government aren’t too bothered as long as the economy is bubbling, it’s when it bursts that everyone starts pointing fingers at who’s to blame. It’s never been the people who could least afford to take on the most debt, they’re just the easiest to blame, and again Government aren’t too bothered because they know all they have to do is promise to put more money in people’s pockets.

No you didn’t, you specifically said beggars in the streets, not just in our cities, but in our towns too… most of whom are foreigners. Not only our own poor, but the poor from other nations, totally incapable or unable to live productively within a first world nation.

Was it a stretch too far to assume you were referring to people who are totally incapable or unable to live productively within a first world nation that they’d qualify as homeless? Completely unreasonable? Really?

I mean, you didn’t produce anything to support your assertion other than what I took to be your own personal observations, which didn’t jig with my own personal observations based upon my own experiences and having worked with homeless organisations for a number of years (‘twas my way of paying it forward for the help I’d received from other people when I was in that situation), and the fact that street begging isn’t nearly as visible as it once was -

As a way of striking a balance, the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 2011 was introduced to give gardai more powers to deal with aggressive beggars. It is now illegal for a beggar to harass, intimidate, assault or threaten anyone or to obstruct anyone or cause an obstruction while begging. The new law also makes it illegal to beg in certain places, such as at the entrances to business premises, near ATM cash machines, and in other areas.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irishvoice/irelands-big-street-begging-scam.amp

I figured it was worth finding out from an objective source, and since there aren’t statistics available for beggars on the streets, not just in our cities, but in our towns too, the vast majority of whom are foreigners, but there are stats available for poor people who would generally be regarded as being incapable or unable to live productively in a first world nation… I took it to mean you were probably referring to people who were homeless, and the best I could do was the homeless figures from the CSO.

Wouldn’t you question something if it didn’t sound right? It was hardly a stretch now klaz in all fairness to assume that’s who you might have been referring to.

I mean, here we are in a thread where people are giving out as though they’re struggling to stay above the poverty line, while immigrants are being prioritised for special treatment in all sorts of ways that they’re not, but I wouldn’t classify anyone here as being incapable or unable to live productively in a first world nation on that basis. That’d be entirely unreasonable, given I’m aware of the idea that there are a huge number of people in Irish society who are currently struggling to cope, and they need support from the State. It doesn’t mean they are incapable or unable to live productively in a first world nation.

I dunno man, I think you’re being a bit nit-picky, but if that’s not who you were referring to, fair enough.

They’re not though Strumms. The vast majority of people in receipt of support from the State, are Irish. Recent treatment of immigrants are bound to make headlines in the media though, and especially so on the scale of the numbers of refugees being granted protection by the State at the one time as we’ve seen recently.

I don’t expect the fact that the vast majority of people in receipt of support from the State are Irish, to make headlines in the same manner, but they’re being dealt with every day being provided with all sorts of supports funded by the State. It doesn’t mean any group are being prioritised over any other group, it’s entirely dependent upon each person’s individual circumstances what kind of support they need, and how much support they receive.

Yeah but they’re not being prioritised OVER Irish people, which is the argument being made. Irish people are still receiving the help they need, and immigrants are getting the help they need. Neither group are being prioritised over another, they’re both receiving whatever help they need, at the same time. It’s being made out that the State can’t do both, but it can, and it’s doing it, it’s been doing it since the foundation of the State. If it was actually the case that one group were being prioritised over another, then you’d certainly notice that one group are receiving support, while the other group are receiving none, and that’s just not the case.

Were the State for example to stop providing for education, while continuing to fund State pensions for example, or were the State to stop providing for healthcare, while continuing to provide for housing, then people would have every right to be legitimately up in arms. What happens in reality though is that people feel they aren’t getting enough support, so they look around to see who is, and start complaining that the State shouldn’t be providing support to that group, with the idea being that it would mean there was more funding available to provide them with the supports they want. A society simply couldn’t function like that.

The State already outsources many of the services it should be providing, because private interests can provide it for much less cost, and the State saves itself the additional costs which would be associated with providing that support. It’s just a more efficient use of public funding, though it obviously doesn’t look like it when the media wishes to capitalise on public sentiments by being critical of Government spending or policies. They’re cherry picking and purposely winding people up because they know that public outrage generates revenue. Sites like Gript are notorious for it. This evening on another thread I read that someone called Ben Gilroy was calling for a public protest. Never heard of him before so I looked him up. I dunno if he’s your cup of tea, he sure as hell ain’t mine, and I wouldn’t be backing him even if it was something I thought was worth joining a public protest about. I’d want no association with him -

Ben Gilroy is an Irish political activist and conspiracy theorist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Gilroy

The first line was enough tbh 😂

when they are being given medical cards while my family members are loosing them, that equals prioritising them.

It doesn’t. It means nothing more than your family members didn’t meet the criteria to be eligible for a medical card, and the immigrants who got them, did qualify for a medical card. Do you somehow imagine that your family members would still have their medical card if immigrants didn’t get one?

I don’t believe for a minute you could possibly in all reality actually think that. If it wasn’t immigrants it’d be another group who get medical cards when your family members didn’t qualify. It’s not immigrants being prioritised are the issue, it’s the fact your family members didn’t qualify for a medical card. They wouldn’t be getting one even if immigrants didn’t get one.

Are you saying that you paid the €400 yourself though, or the State paid it, because that’s not outsourcing if you paid it. Did you at least claim the tax back?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax_credits_and_reliefs/taxation_and_medical_expenses.html

An example of outsourcing would be if you’d been on a waiting list for a procedure and the consultant referred you for treatment abroad. You wouldn’t have to cover the cost, doesn’t matter if you do or don’t have a medical card -

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/eu_healthcare/travelling_for_healthcare.html

You’re not being prioritised either over your family members if you’re eligible to claim tax back or you qualify for treatment abroad, regardless of how someone else might see that as being the case. You’d be entirely justified in pointing out they were being ridiculous.

I'm going to say this extremely cynical but pragmatic thing: there is no reason, no need and no justification for immigrant ghettos. They can be poor in their own country.

I don’t see where’s the pragmatism for immigrants in that tbh, the reason they leave their own countries to immigrate to countries where they imagine they’ll have a better life for themselves and their families, is because generally speaking, they do! Or their children do at least, or grandchildren… takes a couple of generations. It’s why 200 years ago, hell, 50 years ago people then were having the same arguments about immigrants as we’re having now, portraying them as a threat to other groups in society and all the rest of it.

Limerick pogrom in 1904 is just another example of a culmination of the same sort of shìte that had been whipped up by miscreants at the time -

Around 1850 the accusations against the Jews widened: they were identified with the rise of capitalism and the money-grabbing deals that were deemed to go with it. Also, and paradoxically, they were seen as purveyors of radical ideologies which themselves were designed to overthrow the capitalist system! Additionally, the new and strident nationalism then rife in Europe portrayed them as rootless cosmopolitans who gave no allegiance to their countries of settlement but who exploited workers and peasants alike.

…

In 1904 there were roughly 35 Jewish families, about 150 people, in the Limerick urban area. They lived in Colooney Street (now Wolfe Tone Street), not far from the present-day O’Connell monument, and had established a Jewish burial-ground at Kilmurray, near Castleconnell. The first attack on them came in January, when, following a colourful Jewish wedding, a Judge Adams commented on their commercial success and vibrancy. This led to a sour report in the Limerick Leader, which compared their prosperity to the poverty of the native population. A few days later the matter was taken up by Fr John Creagh CSSR, spiritual director of the Arch Confraternity of the Sacred Heart, which had a membership of around 6,000.

From the pulpit Fr Creagh stated:

 ‘The Jews were once chosen by God. But they rejected Christ, they crucified Him. They called down the curse of His precious blood on their heads . . . They were scattered over the earth after the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and they bore away with them an unquenchable hatred for the name of Jesus Christ and his followers . . . The Jews came to Limerick apparently the most miserable tribe imaginable, with want on their faces, and now they have enriched themselves and can boast a very considerable house property in the city. Their rags have been exchanged for silk . . . How do the Jews manage to make their money? Some of you may know their methods better than I do, but it is still my duty to expose these methods. They go about as peddlers from door to door, pretending to offer articles at very cheap prices, but in reality charging several times more than in the shops . . . They forced themselves and their goods upon the people and the people are blind to their tricks . . .’

https://www.historyireland.com/the-limerick-pogrom-1904/

Weren’t the Irish people lucky they had Fr. Creagh looking out for ‘em, eh?

Like fcuk 😂

The conditions that produced such people in the first place? You mean like policies that ensured their failure to integrate into society was an absolute necessity for everyone else’s benefit? Not you of course, you didn’t benefit at all, weren’t even in the country at the time to be fair to you like.

But the people who got absolutely shafted and took on debt they were never going to be able to afford with all the new money that appeared to be floating about the place, while immigrants did all the menial labour and we went from an agricultural economy to a services economy with a bit of a manufacturing economy somewhere in between to now being perceived as a knowledge economy? They’re then forced to take on the burden of paying for already wealthy peoples greed.

Spread the persistent myth of anyone pulling themselves up by their bootstraps more like, and immigrants who have nothing and no power and no authority are a threat to “our” nations prosperity.

Of course I don't blame them for trying to get a better life, that will be absurd. I do blame the government immigration policies for letting them in and for letting them stay and for providing welfare instead of transportation.

You are taking up housing and facilities that could be used by the indigenous people. What right did you have to come in to this land and take up housing and facilities that could have been used by someone whose bloodline goes back 9000 years on this land?

^ You use this logic for other immigrants but not yourself, even though you are an immigrant yourself. What do you say to the Irish people who are not happy with you coming in and taking up their housing and facilities?