DART underground - options

gjim · 29-03-2022 12:33pm #1

I hadn't seen it mentioned here but the original DART underground route selection has been revised in line with the current plans for DART+, ML and other PT improvements. The document is quite interesting as it covers a range of options for DU (including the fetish for a College Green stop promoted endlessly by one particular poster). The document was published last year: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/DART-Tunnel-Route-Options-and-Feasibility.pdf

TLDR; the preferred route is very similar to the the previous (2014) one with a few minor changes. No surprise really. The western tunnel portal would be moved a bit further east. The TBM would be started at the Eastern (docklands) tie in. The positioning of the underground stations have been moved a little bit but in ways that all seem like improvements to me. Hueston underground would be directly below the existing building rather than further east. The docklands underground station will be directly below the planned DART+ docklands station although the platforms will start and end further south than the overground platforms allowing an entrance at the quays.

It also evaluates a bunch of fairly crazy looking alternatives - including linking the Kildare line to the Northern by swinging under the Liffey just east of Hueston, and linking the Kildare line to the Southern coastal line without crossing the Liffey at all (from page 24):

There is a lot of interesting stuff about demand modelling, geology, avoiding historical monuments/sewers/etc, station access and design and the like - the sort of thing the crayon experts generally don't consider. For example a station at Tara is more or less ruled out because of a large sewer which Irish Water say would be very difficult to move.

I know this stuff is all fantasy for now but apparently the preferred route will be "protected" in some way although I don't know what this means in practice.

There was a previous thread (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057289979/dart-underground-alternative-routes) which I would have liked to post to but it's been closed/re-opened/closed a few times and is currently closed. Mods - feel free to move this discussion to the older thread. I think it might make sense to do so as this is quite relevant.

donaghs · 07-07-2022 2:02pm

With the Metrolink back in the news, Trains every 3 minutes at peak times in MetroLink plan (rte.ie), I noticed the "DART Underground" got no mentions at all.

Is this project effectively dead for now?

bennyineire · 07-07-2022 2:08pm

Would it not be better to create a circle route using the exiting Phoenix park tunnel to Docklands line then swinging back through the inner South Side. That and the new Metro coupled with a future South line would truly interconnect the whole city.

Pie in the Sky stuff I know but really would make the city much easier to travel around by train/metro

gjim · 07-07-2022 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119304033#Comment_119304033

No I don't think so. Circle lines are overrated unless they link high demand destinations all along the route. I doubt any city has bothered to construct a new one recently with a radius as large as the one you are suggesting. Not sure even if there is a heavy rail circle line operating anywhere? Common practice these days is to provide increased axial capacity by building lines that criss-cross the city centre with as much interconnection as possible.

For capacity and frequency, you want only want through-stations in the centre which is the fundamental issue with the way the DART and even DART+ will operate with effectively a bunch of terminus' in the centre. This kills frequency and capacity - DART Underground would fix this by allowing nearly all DARTs to through-run.

When you think about the kind of trips facilitated by a circle line, using axial routes, even with an interchange, will often get you to your destination faster. For Dublin in particular, I believe buses could easily meet all the demand for circle-like journeys.

donaghs · 07-07-2022 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119304784#Comment_119304784

So what next for DART underground or a similar plan? A fast link from town to the airport will be great (and other locations which can connect to it). But there does seem to be some gaps there still. i.e. no fast link from Heuston to Pearse or the south side, the existing bottleneck and Connolly with the Maynooth Line and Belfast/Malahide/Howth all converging there.

Brian CivilEng · 07-07-2022 5:19pm

DART Underground is hampered by the conception of it being a Heuston to Connolly link, and therefore the reopening of the Phoenix Park Tunnel in DART+ has made it look like it is no longer needed. In reality the utility of DART Underground was going to be an East West rail link serving multiple city centre destinations, the existing train stations are all a long way the busiest areas of town. I think there will come a time in the not too distant future that we will need to remove a lot of buses from the city centre when pedestrianisation is increased and plazas constructed. DART Underground will probably come back on the agenda then.

pigtown · 08-07-2022 6:31am

An NTA presentation to the Dublin Commuter Coalition this week effectively said that the DU would only increase the no. of passengers making an east-west trip by c.10k above the planned DART through the Phoenix Park tunnel. Its not worth spending the billions on any time soon

strassenwo!f · 08-07-2022 9:23am

As I recall, when most of the discussion on the 'DART Underground - Alternative Routes' thread happened, the major issue was the St. Stephen's Green station.

Pretty much nobody expressing an opinion on that thread expressed an opinion that the project was not a desirable one, and the fact that it went to ABP and got a railway order in 2010 showed that it was deemed to be an important and desirable project, for the State, at the highest levels.

Although it still, theoretically, remains in various extant official transport plans for the years to 2040, or 2020-2070, etc., such as the one mentioned in the opening post, it has effectively disappeared.

At the time, my major concern was that it was being routed through St. Stephen's Green unnecessarily, as the LUAS was stuck there due to Mary O'Rourke's inability to make a decision and, while it was going to achieve integration of everything, it was thus going to miss the highest demand points in the city. A very useful link, now seemingly inactive, provided by the excellent poster Monument, showed that the two highest locations of work activity in Dublin were indeed between St. Stephen's Green and College Green and just across the river between Abbey Street and the river itself.

St. Stephen's Green is at the tip of one of those areas, while College Green is right in the middle, adjacent to both.

We have now seen the Green LUAS extended across the city, beyond St. Stephen's Green, as I said on that thread that it would most probably be. The work patterns in that part of the city haven't broadly changed - as far as I know - the city wants to pedestrianise the area, which is currently a 6-8 lane road, and we are told that there is a sewer issue at Tara Street which would make it a very difficult location for an East-West line.

Were Dublin to go, broadly, with the original plan, no metrolink detour to Tara Street would be necessary.

I haven't seen persuasive arguments against College Green being used - long-term in its hopefully pedestrianised era - as an underground hub which could replace its current massive contribution to Dublin's public transport.

I do think it is unfair of the OP to describe my belief in College Green as a future location of a major station as a fetish. If the OP has a better idea, please bring it on.

D.L.R. · 08-07-2022 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119305119#Comment_119305119

DU ought to be a second Metrolink line. There's no real need for this Crossrail scale in a city of Dublin's size. Much as I'd love to see it, I believe the state incapable of delivering it.

A Metrolink format single bore would do much the same job for a fraction of the cost, and I predict this penny will drop once the first line starts taking shape.

gjim · 08-07-2022 8:29pm

"I do think it is unfair of the OP to describe my belief in College Green as a future location of a major station as a fetish. If the OP has a better idea, please bring it on."

I'm going to come across as an asshole but why would I bother? You've been banging this same College Green underground drum for at least 15 years on various fora. I've already made the mistake of responding with counter-arguments years ago. And I've read countless responses from others over the years - now going on decades - presenting careful and considered rebuttals but they're like water off a ducks back. You've never convinced anyone to change their mind in the 15 odd years - it's time to move on, dude.

murphaph · 14-07-2022 9:48pm

The original plan had and still has the advantage of linking up the more similar alignments. The MGWR & D&SER alignments are very similar. They are unlikely to be widened and will always share the space with IC and outer suburban services. The GNR and GS&WR are or could be very similar if the GNR was widened to allow IC services to leave the DART in peace. There's only a few real pinch points that make quad tracking tricky. The GS&WR is mostly quad tracked to Hazelhatch already. DU wouldn't be comparable to Crossrail. It would require a relatively short tunnel to deliver huge benefits. The bang for our buck from DU was always way higher because it sweats existing assets as much as creating new ones. It would be a tragedy if it were never to appear.

Sam Russell · 15-07-2022 7:08am

The Clongriffin to the airport was a good solution, but it would compete with the metro airport project. Clongriffin would complement the Interlink, or DU tunnel. Now both Metro and Dart serving the airport would make sense if they were already built. Instead we go three platforms at Clongriffin and no track to the airport.

The use of the Phoenix Park Tunnel was not favoured by Irish Rail because it would compete with Dart Underground and make DU too expensive in comparison. So we got the Phoenix Park Tunnel with a tiny service and no Dart Underground.

Metro had to be kept away from CIE for whatever reason, as did Luas. No metro yet but Luas has been kept away from CIE.

Oh what a complex web we weave when politics and vested interests get involved.

brianc89 · 01-08-2022 11:56am

I've been banging my head against a wall on the Dart+ forum regarding the DU. So I'm gonna move here and hopefully get more sympathy 😂

Regarding the Eastern tie-in at Docklands, I am suggesting that the proposed new Spencer Dock station for Dart+ makes future development of the DU highly unlikely.

The DU feasibility study says the following which lines up with my initial thoughts. My main argument is that it is highly unlikely that the new Spencer Dock station will ever be dug up once built.

The added complexity of the proposed DART+ West shallow station at Spencer Dock has not been considered on the understanding that it would need to be temporarily relocated during the construction of the DART+ Tunnel and, afterwards, be reinstated and integrated with the new underground heavy rail station.

murphaph · 02-08-2022 1:03am

They could still connect the Northern line into the tunnel but nothing else. This would require a mined station south of the planned DART West one. In short, this planned station is going to seriously hobble DU.

If they absolutely must have temporary termination capacity then build a clone of the existing cheap and cheerful docklands station on the western side of the Spencer Dock site, leaving room to drop down into a future DU station on the other half of the site. Use the existing docklands station + clone to create your 4 terminal platforms. 2 original station platforms accessible only from the MGWR, the 2 cloned ones accessible from the GSWR also. Preferably the sheet piling should go in already to enable excavation for DU without major interruption to services at the clone station, should DU ever be built.

brianc89 · 02-08-2022 7:42am

How would they connect the Northern line? On the right hand side / to the north-east of proposed new platforms? Or further west?

I'm no engineer, but you'd imagine they could make it work. There is a lot of space to work with in that area.

What I'm hot happy about, is diving into building the new Spencer Dock station without fully considering how it'll impact construction of DU.

See my crude diagram. Would there be space on the west side for a TBM? One way or another, this would leave you with 3 lines crossing over to continue down DU or terminate at SD, which is far from ideal.

murphaph · 02-08-2022 9:24am

I suppose with enough money thrown at it anything is possible but that's our money. I think it would be relatively trivial at this stage to build the new station as if DU was going to use it from day 1. It would be more expensive than what is currently planned but IMO significantly cheaper in the long run. Tens of if not low hundreds of millions cheaper. That's a lot of waste.

The idea of building a second docklands station that will be discarded in the event of DU just does not sit well with me at all. The original disposable Docklands station didn't sit well with me but this one is going to cost significantly more.

cgcsb · 05-08-2022 11:57am

Is there a reason why we shouldn't have DART Underground going into tunnel at Heuston, a stop at Smithfield at the current hole in the ground near the luas stop. A stop at the O'Connell St Metro station /Carlton site and then emerge from tunnel at Fairview Park and join the northern line at Clontarf Road Station?

murphaph · 05-08-2022 12:10pm

I could certainly live with it. I could live with just about any east west alignment that connected up the DART lines, which is the primary goal. The major advantage of going under at Spencer Dock was the at least potential ability to run some DARTs from Maynooth through the tunnel but in reality I don't see a practical benefit to that option as many people would cut the corner by transferring to metro at Glasnevin and again at St. Stephen's Green (or in your case at O'Connell St. It would completely replicate the red line from Heuston to O'Connell St. of course. In some ways that could be a benefit as the red line along there is at capacity. Passengers could change to red line at Heuston, Smithfield or O'Connell for stops in between. A bit like local and express trains on some networks. Still leaves the south inner city with no rail but could open up options to extend the red line underground before it turns into James' and follow the canal roughly around to Charlemont.

Dublin is such a blank canvas it's hard to build an alignment that wouldn't be useful.

loyatemu · 05-08-2022 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432270#Comment_119432270

that option is in the report linked in the OP. It doesn't score well.

cgcsb · 05-08-2022 1:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432466#Comment_119432466

Thanks must have a read in detail

brianc89 · 06-08-2022 12:35am

A metro line along the full length of the Grand Canal I believe would be a fantastic solution.

Heuston West, Suir Road, Dolphins Barn, Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Charlemont, Mespil / Wilton Park, Grand Canal Dock, Ringsend, Irishtown.

This would interchange with Red Luas twice (Suir Road, Ringsend - assuming an extension from Point), Metro / Green Luas at Charlemont, Dart line twice (Heuston West, Grand Canal Dock).

You could avoid the Spencer Dock difficulty, as people could connect to Metro at Glasnevin or use the Red Luas to continue from SD to Irishtown.

Sam Russell · 06-08-2022 10:16am

Even a Luas along the Grand Canal would be a good option.

Red line at Dolphins Barn to GCD, and allow branch at Charlemont to SSG, so there could be GCD to Broombridge, GCD to Tallaght, Tallaght to Charlemont and onto SSG, Parnell and Broombridge.

This would make a network that would allow a huge number of connections.

Dart Underground is still a good option for fast east west traffic.

L1011 · 06-08-2022 3:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432270#Comment_119432270

It wouldn't provide any connection to the Maynooth-Bray line that way. Also that hole in the ground is going to have something built on in Any Day Now (for the last decade). It is/was being used for site facilities for other developments.

cgcsb · 06-08-2022 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437428#Comment_119437428

The opw owns it so doubt you'll ever see anything on it. There could be a new station somewhere around Croke Park or a 'Connolly North' could provide interchange between the two lines.

L1011 · 06-08-2022 7:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119438059#Comment_119438059

It has a specific plan. New station to create interchange is sub-par to doing it at an existing one; albeit it is already being done at Glasnevin.

strassenwo!f · 06-08-2022 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432270#Comment_119432270

One of the places that the original route for DU was selected to serve was Christchurch, and the much-trumpeted 'Digital Hub' in the vicinity.

Around 2005-8, no statement about DU was complete without a mention of how it would 'go via St. Stephen's Green to connect with the LUAS....and via Christchurch to serve the Digital Hub...'

How is that Hub doing?

murphaph · 07-08-2022 12:36am

Ah now if it doesn't go through Christchurch there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of it going through College Green ;-)

Seriously what I like about the idea of simply running under the red line is that the red line is basically crap along there with all the junctions it has to negotiate. I've long thought that putting it underground would eventually be required but there's more than one way to skin a cat and the idea of using the interconnector as a direct underground replacement for red line north of the quays has a certain appeal as you can look at diverting the red line underground at Dolphin's Barn to run roughly along the grand canal to Charlemont, and then closing the few remaining gaps of on street running through cut and cover (longest section is Bluebell to Black Horse, remaining bits are all individual junctions - the red line actually runs off street/on its own alignment for much of its length but is let down by the on street bits). This could remain pre-metro or be upgraded to full metro.

I'd probably slightly adjust the proposal to swing into an underground station at Connolly before emerging onto the northern line. Then you interchange with the other DART and mainline rail and Luas and bus at one point.

strassenwo!f · 07-08-2022 1:24am

Don't get me wrong - Christchurch and its environs always made eminent sense to me for an underground line across the city. The focus on the 'Digital Hub' was, to my mind, taking away from the natural regeneration possibilities that were and are there, in that part of the city, Digital Hub or not.

It is on a significant hill, and some of the plans for that area in, e.g., the DTO's 'Platform for Change' scheme, were mad - for example, the tramline along Bridge Street, where the proposed gradients would have been way beyond anything currently achieved. A funicular might perhaps have worked.

It will be interesting to see if the proposed Lucan LUAS can manage the gradients in that area. Underground through Christchurch, with an East-West line, always made sense to me as the best way to serve that area.

We shall see if the proposed Lucan LUAS - and we haven't heard much here about that in the last few years - can handle the gradients involved.

strassenwo!f · 07-08-2022 1:34am

And, one good thing is that nobody is expending any effort suggesting that the DU project needs to be built via St.Stephen's Green.

That ship has sailed.

noelfirl · 07-08-2022 9:21am

Right... that ship has sailed, despite the most recent commissioned report from Jacobs saying it should go via... St. Stephen's Green.

murphaph · 07-08-2022 9:58am

If I had a choice I'd take the original plan via the south inner city but more or less any east west alignment would deliver. St. Stephen's Green, College Green, O'Connell Street. Tara would have been great as you'd have interchange to metro and the other DART but (and I'm sorry this is utterly pathetic) Irish Water says a large sewer would be in the way and difficult to relocate. Tragic stuff really. Can't they go above or below the sewer even if it is some immovable, irreplaceable jewel in the crown of sewers? A Crossrail engineer would find such an argument against Tara quite humourous I'm sure.

jwwb · 07-08-2022 6:38pm

Been having a look at the document linked earlier. The study area (drawing 2-2 on pg14)seems to skirt around The Coombe Hospital in Dolphins Barn and Griffith College - I would have thought both would be big public transport destinations

D.L.R. · 08-08-2022 5:15pm

The Coombe and Griffith are not the city centre though, which kind of misses the point.

Heuston - City Centre - Northern line. That's it. Its not rocket science. And we have a solution. We've had a solution for 15 years.

The issue isn't the route, the issue is the Irish state's unwillingness to build it.

brianc89 · 09-08-2022 1:42pm

When DU was designed, it had two main purposes, if I'm correct, which was to improve East-West travel through the city centre and free up Connolly station to increase capacity on the Dart Coastal line.

The Phoenix Park tunnel and Dart+ has provided new East-West capacity and the new Spencer Dock will free up Connolly station. All Dart+ W and SW passengers will change to the Metro at Glasnevin or Green Luas at Spencer. Dart+ W also has Green Luas connection at Broombridge.

We also shouldn't forget Bus Connects which is costing $3B+. A huge goal of Bus Connects is frequent on-time services to maximize connectivity and increase capacity.

The two main arguments for DU have now been severely reduced. The solution that was designed 20years ago has to be re-examined, which will include the route.

murphaph · 09-08-2022 2:54pm

Personally I think the original route still stands up to scrutiny and is probably the best one but with Tara seemingly (and inexplicably for me) ruled out as an interchange with metrolink then it has to be the Green or (far less likely) O'Connell St. It would be completely unacceptable to build DU with no interchange to metrolink IMO.

DU as originally planned creates an X shaped DART network with Pearse the crossing point. DU must interchange with the other DART line as much as it must interchange with metrolink. Leaving either off would be massive folly.

The north of the quays "replicate the red line" idea has merit as the actual red line could go underground at Dolphin's Barn and ultimately be upgraded to pre-metro or metrolink some day with the on street section running just from Dolphin's Barn to Docklands and serving a local distributor function. In this case interchange with metrolink would be at O'Connell St. and interchange with overground DART would need to be in the vicinity of Connolly.

I think the proposed Spencer Dock station may so hobble the original DU plan that a radical redesign such as a north of the quays alignment is chosen. It seems largely like rolling dice because a long term plan does not exist. Every change of government brings a risk of cancellation or "review".

D.L.R. · 09-08-2022 4:27pm

Clueless country will never have a long term plan. It will continue to build piecemeal, small time measures upon small time measures, resulting in our garbled, messy network becoming a slightly larger garbled, messy network.

Look at Spencer Dock, perfect example. Nobody even mentioned that project until recently, now its a hot topic. Why? Because its cheap. Great way to avoid the big calls like DU or Metro. "Look at us building things".

Why would any sane person expect anything different from this state. Its track record speaks for itself.

gjim · 09-08-2022 10:53pm

I've yet to hear a reasonable alternative to Spencer Dock - except vague claims that "they should just do it properly". The problem is that no-one has managed to explain what "doing it properly" means which works from an engineering perspective.

Spencer Dock was always going to be required for DART+ - there's simply no way around it except to spend nearly a billion for an upgrade to Connolly which would become defunct when/if DU becomes operational. I don't see the relative "cheapness" of Spencer Dock as a problem - because long term, post DU - it will have a limited role. According to the Jacobs report, it's unlikely to support terminating more than 3 trains/hour from either DART S or DART SW post DU. Regardless it's going to be a great addition to the network for the decades before DU.

@murphaph - the Jacob report agrees with you and having evaluated all options recommends the 2014 plan (for which the RO was granted) with very minor changes as the preferred next step after DART+. I.e. the X-shaped DART network crossing at Pearse with ML integration at Stephen's Green.

murphaph · 09-08-2022 11:24pm

Here's a reasonable alternative to the planned 4 platform SD station then that involves building less than is currently planned...

Firstly, don't close the existing Docklands station as is currently planned. That gives you two terminating platforms in the Docklands straight away. Yes they can only be reached from the MGWR line but the junction at Glasnevin used to face the other way before about 1925, ie before the GSWR built the route through Drumcondra. Reinstate the junction at Glasnevin so that trains from the GSWR (DART SW) can reach the MGWR line again if needs be. Then you can terminate DART W and DART SW trains at the existing Docklands station, which provides half the termination capacity of SD and that station already exists!

Secondly, slim the proposed SD station down to a single island platform, half the width of the proposed station, a cheap clone of the existing Docklands station and keep it tight to the west side of the proposed SD site. This provides the other two termination platforms in the Docklands. That is all the capacity the proposed SD station would have. Almost no passengers would ever transfer from a terminating DART SW train to a departing DART W one or vice versa as these commuting patterns currently do not really exist, so it is not a penalty to terminate the trains in separate locations (like Kings Cross and St. Pancras in London).

Why do this? Because then you have the other eastern half of the site to run your TBM in, build your 2 platform DU station etc. all without disrupting DART+ services into the Docklands during DU construction.

AngryLips · 10-08-2022 6:40am

I just fail to see how a ten minute all-day frequency to Spencer Dock can be justified in the Dart+ project when the current Docklands station can't even justify services outside of peak periods - like where's the proof of concept?

brianc89 · 10-08-2022 10:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451962#Comment_119451962

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452233#Comment_119452233

I think the trains need to terminate right next to the Luas stop otherwise the demand won't be there. I've done that walk from the current SD platform to the Luas and it's PAINFUL. You just get to the station and miss Luas. You end with a 15minute connection.

How about they kept the platforms for new SD tight in on the left and actually built two levels. One platform over the other.

This would keep the eastern side of the entire site, North and South of Sheriff Street, free for future use in DU.

Apologies for my crude diagram but hopefully it illustrates my suggestion.

murphaph · 10-08-2022 12:59pm

I'm more convinced than ever that the DART+ SD station is folly. Just expand the existing Docklands station to 4 platforms (western 2 for MGWR line as at present, eastern two for GSWR line from Drumcondra) and create a public right of way along the canal (if one does not exist already). Then relocate Spencer Dock Luas stop to the end of that footpath beside the bridge. That's no more than 3 minutes walk in a straight line. You could even put a nice glass roof over the path and stick a security guard on it so nobody gets wet in the rain or feels unsafe at night. Rename the Luas stop to "Docklands" or whatever to match the IE station and hey presto job done. There are significantly longer interchange walks in London in stations with the same name!

Leave the SD site completely vacant (better yet build the damn DU station box in full now and allow construction of offices above the station to get some serious rent flowing to go towards completing DU later) and don't hobble DU at all. And all for less money!

SD station is completely unnecessary at that precise location. In fact, isn't the fact it would have blocked DU at least partially why the existing Docklands station was built where it is??

brianc89 · 10-08-2022 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453598#Comment_119453598

This is a fantastic idea. Love it. Move the Luas stop closer to the canal. Job DONE. Even cheaper than the current proposal.

murphaph · 10-08-2022 5:27pm

Aye and a Luas stop is little more than a raised kerb and a ticket machine! That is literally all you need to do to provide decent connectivity to Luas. Who on earth came up with the idea of plonking a flashy and disruptive (and temporary) station in there rather than working with the existing Docklands one which has lands to the east to add at least another 2 platforms, possibly more!

You would really have to wonder is the plan to intentionally hobble DU when you see what's going on here.

gjim · 10-08-2022 10:13pm

@murphaph - repeating this "hobble the DU" claim over and over doesn't make it true.

Just read the short section in the Jacob's report on the DU Docklands station. The DU Docklands station was always (even in the 2014 RO) planned to use mining - to get under the Luas and Mayor street - and to only use cut and cover construction on the North Wall Quay site. In the 2014 RO, there was going to be a shaft on the proposed Spencer Dock site, but the Jacob's report suggests that it's not required because of the proximity to the portal and recommends it should be removed from the plan in light of the planned DART+W station on the site.

And I don't see how your proposal is any better than the Spencer Dock one in terms of avoiding disruption. If you look at the eastern tie-in section of the Jacob's report, the area you are proposing to be used for new platforms would have to be levelled for DU construction - as it's needed for spoil management.

So in terms of wasting money your proposal is actually worse as the station you are proposing would have to be bulldozed for DU construction. At least with Spencer Dock station, the disruption caused by DU construction doesn't require the new station to be destroyed - it would just be cut off during the portal works. But afterwards there will be a working and useful terminal station still standing.

The existing Docklands station is nasty - and was only ever intended to be temporary. It's wind-swept and has poor access as it's surrounded on three sides by inaccessible industrial brown-field - mostly railway works but also an unused canal. In contrast, Spencer Dock has direct access from both Major St - the "high street" of the north docklands - and Sheriff St and is fully covered. It reflects the fact that we've a bit more ambition when it comes to station design and utility these days than we had in 2006.

murphaph · 10-08-2022 10:47pm

So to summarise, my plan can't work because spoil for DU absolutely must be heaped up at that location (and not say railed out promptly - a TBM isn't going to be removing more than a couple of train loads of spoil a day) and because Docklands station isn't as "nice" as SD would be?

gjim · 10-08-2022 11:33pm

Honestly I don't know what your plan is? You're all over the shop with ideas, suggestions and concerns. I thought you were arguing to build 4 deep terminal platforms under the old North Wall station site? You also seem to be arguing to build a completely different DU underground station (under the SD site) than the one which was planned (under the North Wall station site) - decades before it might be used? Your concerns flip and flop between the idea that SD will block construction of DU and that it won't but that DART+ S and SW services would be disrupted more during DU construction. Or that money is being wasted by building SD ? You suggest a temporary station north of Sherrif St would be superior even though current DU plans need that land for TBM and portal works. You seem to be redesigning DU as you go so I don't really know what to argue with - it's all a bit too fluid for me.

brianc89 · 11-08-2022 7:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456694#Comment_119456694

Okay now you genuinely are being rude and indignant.

You blatantly ignore real issues and unanswered questions which we have raised such as where exactly the new Spencer Dock station can be "temporarily relocated" during DU construction, if this happens.

You keep referring to this legendary Jacobs report which has one paragraph written about the "eastern tie-in". It omits any detail whatsoever about how this these two projects could ever work together. If I didn't know better, you might have written it.

And DON'T DARE tell us to offer real solutions and then pick them all apart as proof we are talking nonsense and rambling. We are trying to be constructive.

murphaph · 11-08-2022 8:01am

Yeah I'm out too. I made suggestion A and it was discounted for reason x. I then suggested B and it was discounted for reason y. I then made a final suggestion C and the only grounds gjim can find to discount that one are that a single paragraph in the Jacobs report suggests that spoil needs to be heaped exactly where the existing Docklands station is (necessitating its demolition) and that a new SD station would be nicer than the existing Docklands station. That's it. Those are gjim's arguments against adding two platforms to Docklands and leaving the SD site in peace.

I didn't stick with my original suggestion and doggedly defend it like some posters here. If that's "too fluid" then I'm sorry but I'm looking for a way to make sure DU isn't scrapped later because quite frankly there is no way any government will sanction the kind of suspension of services gjim suggests would be required to build DU after SD station becomes operational.

gjim · 11-08-2022 11:10pm

Yeah I'm kinda running out of energy for this argument also.

Regarding your suggestion C, I accept that it would probably be possible to change the DU construction plans so that such a new north-of-Sheriff-St station would not need to be demolished but I fail to see what problem such a station station solves. The line from Drumcondra enters the docklands in a gullet meters from the Northern line spur and right through the area required to build the portal so it doesn't matter where you locate the terminal platforms for this line, it will be inoperable during DU construction.

I sort of agree with one aspect of your suggestion C, in the sense that I think that the current Docklands Station should probably be kept in a shuttered state, even after Spencer Dock is built, in case it turns out to be possible to terminate canal line trains there during DU construction.

But I don't agree with the other part of your suggestion (build new temporary platforms north of Sheriff St) as it does nothing to avoid the disruption issue and at the same time we'd have DART+ W and SW users expected to use a poorly located "temporary" station for 20 odd years.

I don't get the opposition to Spencer Dock - it will be a modern, fully covered, 4 platform integrated station, in the heart of a high density area, providing dual access/entrances hundreds of metres apart, opening onto the "main street" of the north docklands. After spending 3 billion odd on the rest of DART+, it just seems the worst sort of penny pinching to expect users to use a cheap nasty "temporary" and poorly located platforms for 20 years or so.

CatInABox · 25-07-2023 3:58pm

Looks like we've got a direction for Dart Underground from the All Ireland Rail Report.

− A modified line linking Heuston and Drogheda. This consists of a new tunnel connecting Heuston and Spencer Dock via Temple Bar and Tara Street, four-tracking the northern line between Spencer Dock and Clongriffin, and a new line inland from Clongriffin to Drogheda. A spur to Dublin Airport from Clongriffin is included.

Temple Bar and Tara Street look to be the new desired stations, which is interesting.

All of this seems to be connected as well. I can't imagine Dart Underground going ahead without four tracking, or the new inland line, or the spur to the Airport.

bk · 25-07-2023 6:44pm

Reading the report today, I'm now certain that DART Underground is dead and gone!

They now instead want to build "Crossrail Dublin" which will be like the Crossrail line (Elizabeth Line) in London.

They only mention the tunnel taking Intercity and long distance commuter trains, no mention of DART in the tunnel at all!

So that is that, DART Underground is gone.

I guess they plan instead for DART to continue to use the PPT, while they build this Crossrail tunnel for intercity instead.

I think it is a terrible idea as I don't see this Crossrail tunnel happening in any of our lifetimes. Dart Underground might have been justified, but this just doesn't make sense and even in their report it has a pretty poor cost benefit ratio!

EDIT: They call is "cross-Dublin Tunnel" rather then Crossrail.

DART underground - options

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