What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

lmao10 · 05-08-2022 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432739#Comment_119432739

So just so it's clear, it's ok for an immigrant like you to come in and take Irish peoples housing and facilities because you pay tax?

It is quite difficult to understand your stance because you seem to be benefiting from taking up the housing and facilities of Irish people, to the detriment of some Irish people, according to your other arguments about immigrants.

One eyed Jack · 05-08-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432739#Comment_119432739

Cordell that argument doesn’t even begin, for a number of reasons, so there’s little point in even entertaining it.

Providing for it’s citizens costs the State FAR more than the cost of supporting immigrants, which costs virtually feckall by comparison, not least because of the reality that there are millions more citizens than there are immigrants, but even at an individual level seeing as immigrants didn’t have the benefit of our public education system, or our public healthcare system, so even an immigrant coming in with nothing, is already costing the State less than a citizen who was born here.

I gather you’re doing alright for yourself, but you’re still a cost to the State even if you were never in receipt of support from the State, you still benefit from, and stand to benefit from it’s provision of public services which, I can rest assure you are funded to the tune of fannyadams by PAYE employees.

In 2021, income taxes amounted to about €27.6Bn out of total revenues of €96.6Bn. The cost of revenue administration alone was nearly €500m, and there are posters here cribbing about public funds being spent on providing support for immigrants and the “cost” of immigrants?

Arguments about how much immigrants cost the State are weak as fcuk tbh.

Strumms · 05-08-2022 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431433#Comment_119431433

Rich ? loaded ? You can tell my folks are rich ? Some nonsense stretch even by your standards :)

people who have worked hard in life and been responsible with money and the thanks.. they get sick and it gets eaten into like there’s no tomorrow… that ain’t fairness, lifelong workers and taxpayers but they’ll be prevented from enjoying a facet of a safety net in senior years that instead is given to others just stepping off a plane. Nice. Z😉

Cordell · 05-08-2022 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432968#Comment_119432968

In 2021, income taxes amounted to about €27.6Bn out of total revenues of €96.6Bn. The cost of revenue administration alone was nearly €500m, and there are posters here cribbing about public funds being spent on providing support for immigrants and the “cost” of immigrants?

Arguments about how much immigrants cost the State are weak as fcuk tbh

Your analysis is, to use the same amount of deep insight as you used, weak as fcuk. Contributions don't only include the income tax, that's only a piece of an individual's contribution to society. Who do you think produced the rest of the revenue, who works and creates value for those MNC that pay a lot of tax? Also the cost is not just the cost of the welfare handouts. It's not just about the money.

05-08-2022 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433243#Comment_119433243

It was you who provided the info that they were refused due to failing the means test, not I

One eyed Jack · 05-08-2022 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433243#Comment_119433243

Have you inquired about a discretionary medical card for your family members?

Discretionary card

If your income is above the limit, you may still be able to get a medical card if your circumstances would result in financial hardship without one. This is sometimes called a discretionary medical card.

The application process for the discretionary medical card is the same as for the means tested medical card, but you should also include information about your family’s medical expenses in your application.

Ukranian refugees qualifying for a medical card under the Temporary Protection Directive will have to apply for a medical card under the same conditions and rules as everyone else after 9 months -

If you are coming to Ireland from Ukraine under the Temporary Protection Directive, you are entitled to health services and a medical card immediately. After 9 months, you need to make a full application for a medical card – including the financial assessment or means test. There is a special medical card application form (pdf) for people from Ukraine. This medical card application form is also available in Ukranian (pdf) and Russian (pdf).

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/medical_cards_and_gp_visit_cards/medical_card.html

lmao10 · 05-08-2022 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433400#Comment_119433400

LOL I remember that. He was going on about it but then it became clear that they didn't meet the means test.

He then used the argument that people failing to meet a means test = immigrants taking your medical cards.

Wibbs · 05-08-2022 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429709#Comment_119429709

Ah the sniff of the No true Scotsman in the air. Russia and China are empires and are multicultural as empires tend to be. This imperial difference also "explains" China's atitude to Uyghurs and even Tibet. It's quite the different mindset. And of course they both very much have a heirarchy in place with one at the top.

The problem is every single Western "multicultural" nation you care to look at is the exact same when it comes to these hierachies. It doesn't seem to matter what laws against discrimination and education and "positive discrimination" and recent or longterm histories or politics are involved the same groups end up in pretty much exactly the same tiers within the hierarchy. IE Black African most likely to be less employed, less educated, more in reciept of social supports, more marginalised and so forth. East Asians tend to be at the same level or higher than the local White population, Middle easterners and those from the subcontinent with the biggest spread from top to bottom, depending on background cultures. There isn't a single example out there where East Asians do the same or worse than Black Africans. Not a one. Doesn't matter if it's a democracy, right, left, centrist, autocracy, pro or anti outsiders, an "old" nation or a more newly minted European colonial one*, or even empires. The surface shifts and individuals have more leeway and some are certainly better than others, but the overall realities seem to be remarkably consistent. But apparently if we bring about true multiculturalism here in Ireland, for the first time in history by the by, then sure it'll be grand.

Only it won't be. Black Africans here already report and face discrimination in job applications. They're also far more likely to be in need of social supports than the background population. Even with our existing anti discrimination legislation, feel good government and media campaigns and Irish Black History month. It's fine, even laudable to be optimistic, but it can also be extremely naive and blinded to realities by that same optimism. Unless there's a social miracle and a shift in basic human nature Ireland will follow the exact same trajector as every single other "multicultural" nation out there. It's a given.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431631#Comment_119431631

Certainly and I'd agree with all that. But it's yet another example of why this politic is doomed to failure. What you describe about London's East End and history and the demographic shifts there, "White Flight" etc can be transferred to and observed in any big city in France, Germany, Sweden, Holland and so forth. It is always the same story everywhere you look.

My consistent position in this thread and about this politics is: All nations have their own social issues and ills, however the Western "multiculturalist" politic adds more on top and different ones and seemingingly intractable ones and to little seeming benefit beyond the novelty of exoticism, feelings of charity and some vain optimistic hope that this time it'll be different.

*save for the colonial nations having an extra twist, the original natives of those countries. So Native Americans in the US and Canada being marginalised, or worse a place like Australia where their natives were utterly screwed and remain so in many ways. If I had to live in Australia I'd much prefer to be Black and African than Aboriginal.

One eyed Jack · 05-08-2022 3:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433354#Comment_119433354

It’s not weak though, because the other forms of taxation are irrelevant. I’m making the comparison on the most basic level because that’s the most basic comparison being drawn - people complaining about how their income tax contributions are being used to provide support for immigrants who haven’t the means to support themselves.

I’m well aware where the rest of Exchequers revenue comes from, but it’s a pointless comparison. Why would I include for example Capital Gains Tax, Corporation Tax, VAT or Stamp Duty when they’re not based upon whether an individual is an immigrant or not? I’m well aware too it’s not just the cost of the handouts, but again those handouts aren’t based upon whether an individual is an immigrant or not.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/receipts/net-receipts.pdf

It was YOU who made the point about how much immigrants cost the State and how the State should be under no obligation to provide for them, so I figured fcuk it, if you’re attempting to suggest the State can simply ignore its international human rights obligations and you want to boil it down to cost, let’s do just that.

Now you say it’s NOT just about the money? Well I knew that, but feel free to raise whatever other considerations you think it’s about that you think I haven’t already considered. Being an immigrant yourself, it stands to reason you’ll have considered factors that won’t occur to me who’s never had to think about anything from an immigrants perspective.

Strumms · 05-08-2022 3:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433400#Comment_119433400

Failing means test = rich, right… some disingenuous schtick.

05-08-2022 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433434#Comment_119433434

Only it won't be. Black Africans here already report and face discrimination in job applications. They're also far more likely to be in need of social supports than the background population. Even with our existing anti discrimination legislation, feel good government and media campaigns and Irish Black History month. It's fine, even laudable to be optimistic, but it can also be extremely naive and blinded to realities by that same optimism. Unless there's a social miracle and a shift in basic human nature Ireland will follow the exact same trajector as every single other "multicultural" nation out there. It's a given.

While I agree that such discrimination exists, and it definitely does.. I do wonder how much of it is imagined or conveniently applied to reinforce the victim position within a society, due to the range of benefits/supports that status can provide. I remember a conversation with a Black American I knew in China, who came from a middle class family, and he spoke often about the way other Black people in the US glorified in their positions of being discriminated against, to the extent they didn't need to improve themselves because they'd passed all responsibility for their positions over to other people. Even when the State supports, and private contributions were there to provide education, other developmental tools, and the funding to leave that lifestyle behind, they refused to do so.

I learned from living in China that if you go looking to find racism, it's easy to find. It's remarkably easy to take any behaviour that is even remotely negative (especially that which is neutral for others but you've got a negative connection with it), and assign a position of racism over it. I'd experienced the same when working in Africa, where the looks of others, the manner in which they took my order in a cafe, or the way police officers dealt with my queries, could all be assigned to a sense of racism.. because it's kinda nice to blame it all on racism, than deal with our own shortcomings.

Last week I spent some time in the pub with a group of older friends, and a few people I hadn't known previously. They were talking about searching for better employment, the interviews they'd had, the promotions missed, etc. Naturally enough most of the complaints were about external influence as opposed to what they were lacking as possible employees.. but the two Black people at the table immediately claimed that racism was the reason for it. Nothing else. Everyone was racist when they didn't employ them, or they didn't get their desired promotions.. whereas the Irish blamed quotas, contractors coming in, etc.

I think we've (western culture) set ourselves up due to the way minorities and racism are seen in society.. and by extension, through the government initiatives. People are going to take the advantages presented to themselves. That includes the advantage of being a minority, and the convenience of being able to cry racism when something goes wrong. I've done it myself in China (until my ex explained it applied equally to Chinese people), but it was simply so easy to consider racism to be the reason, because I knew that China/Chinese people were quite racist. The stereotype existed.. which is racist in itself. It's a funny one.

05-08-2022 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433604#Comment_119433604

Well according to you its more like

Failing means test because income/resources are above the threshold = immigrants bad!

Disingenuous indeed

Annasopra · 05-08-2022 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433604#Comment_119433604

Immigrants are not to blame for your family members losing their medical card. No matter how many times you make that claim. Its just not true.

Annasopra · 05-08-2022 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433697#Comment_119433697

Thats it in a nutshell.

Picking some random thing out of thin air and blaming it on immigrants despite the fact there is ZERO link. That poster constantly does this; finds fault with many things and makes ludicrous and ridiculous claims that immigrants are the blame/cause of what they are complaining about.

Its never ever the goverments fault. Its never because family members failed income threshholds. Always about blame and shame of immigrants.

lmao10 · 05-08-2022 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433824#Comment_119433824

Conor McGregor doesn't qualify for jobseekers allowance anymore because of immigrants.

Wibbs · 05-08-2022 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433637#Comment_119433637

Oh there's much to that too and is seen in every other "multicultural" nation. That's not to say racism doesn't exist. Only a damned fool could claim that with a straight face. And nobody from an obvious minority group of any hue in any country would claim it.

Rather than racism, I would say "Otherism" is inherent in human nature and always has been and isn't going away any time soon. And this otherism can be seen and used in different ways. Those looking for inclusion as well as those looking to exclude and yes as you note by those wanting for excuses because of it.

Or looking to benefit from it. In the latter case the UCD "academic" and her ridiculous and laughably ignorant crusade about statues outside a Dublin hotel a good example. Her social position and means of income depends on otherism. Same for firebrands on the right as well as the left all the way through charities and public service entities directly involved. Vested interests all over the place.

The more otherism the better too. As I noted before the vast majority of inward migration to Ireland over the last 25 years has been of White Europeans. Black Africans are the minority in this, never mind compared to the overall population. However they're the most obviously "other", they stick out, so the focus goes there, in media, even advertising, NGOs and Right and Left wing discourse. It's a lot harder to engender either support or hate for say Latvians simply because they're not "other" at all unless you actually talk with one and even then it's of a far less other. And that's pretty much why we have Irish Black History month and pretty much nada for anyone else and IMHO we're setting us and them up for a fall, because this stuff simply doesn't work and looks like the half hearted sop it is, not least to Black people. I'd also say it's one main reasons why we only took in 3000 odd Syrians over ten years and with lots of checks and balances, yet took over ten times as many Ukrainians in a few months. That same inherent to human nature otherism was much quicker to see Ukrainians as "Us" than Syrians, who are much more "Them".

I have noted down the years that Western White Europeans are much more likely to ignore even deny this sorta thing, whereas Eastern Europeans are much more likely to acknowledge it. Same for East Asians. IMHO they're more honest about it.

Miadhc · 05-08-2022 11:03pm

>The total number of PPS numbers issued this year is 183,601; over 9,000 more than the total of 174,525 for the twelve months of 2021. At this rate there will be over 300,000 new PPS numbers issued by the end of 2022, and over 75% of them will be to people of other than Irish nationality.

>So far this year, 27% of new PPS numbers have been issued to people who are not Irish or any other EU nationality, and not among those claiming refugee status from Ukraine.

https://gript.ie/more-pps-numbers-issued-to-ukrainians-than-irish-citizens-in-2022-including-irish-births/

Dufflecoat Fanny · 06-08-2022 3:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119435427#Comment_119435427

We are way better off with Ukrainians than anyone from Africa. Compatibility is hugely important when we are getting squished for space. The world is getting packed and we have to accept migration is a reality. We need to be responsible for our legacy and not let in people that are going to need adaptation babysitting for generations.

Dufflecoat Fanny · 06-08-2022 4:56am

Found this in reddit

https://thecurrency.news/articles/88462/official-ireland-cant-comprehend-how-fast-the-country-is-growing-thats-a-big-problem/

For net migration, officials set out three projections: low, medium and high net migration, corresponding to 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 additional people per year moving to the country rather than leaving it. In simple terms, statisticians were expecting the population to increase by somewhere between 32,000 people per year and 49,000.

These projections are subjected to a reality check of sorts each year, when officials tot up information from other sources, to generate an annual estimate of the population. Doing this each year between 2016 and the latest Census, the best estimates were that Ireland had added 272,000 extra people in the six years to 2022 – or 45,000 people a year.

What the latest Census figures show is that the country instead added nearly 385,000 people in the same six-year period – or 64,000 per year. Just over 190,000 of this increase came from net international migration. In other words, nearly 32,000 more people came to Ireland each year to live than left.

...

Irish housing policy is currently constrained by the Housing Needs & Demand Assessment (HNDA), an exercise that each local authority must undertake as part of the preparations for its Development Plan. Development Plans for the rest of the decade are to be published by almost all local authorities over the next year or so. Those plans are reviewed by the Office of the Planning Regulator (OPR).

The OPR takes a dim view of local authorities countenancing growth above the official projections contained in the HNDA. But the HNDA is based on a view of the future where Ireland’s net migration is just 15,000 per year. Even averaged over the past 25 years, net migration has been over 22,000 per year. And as per above, net migration for the rest of the decade could be twice that long-run average and three times the number in the HNDA.

All of this wouldn’t be so critical if the HNDA’s numbers weren’t taken as maximums, the ceiling above which the number of new homes should not go. But the combination of a failure of imagination – and a failure to understand the consequences of too few homes – has left Ireland dangerously exposed to many more years of growing pains.

Luxembourgo · 06-08-2022 6:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432571#Comment_119432571

Is that cost thing proven? Would it cost more to deport people or how more to process claims and get quicker decisions?

malinheader · 06-08-2022 7:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119435427#Comment_119435427

Anyone driving through Letterkenny recently will get a first hand view how the country's demographic has changed.

06-08-2022 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119435427#Comment_119435427

You do love your far-right, xenophobic publications

Dyr · 06-08-2022 11:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436166#Comment_119436166

So you're claiming that publication got their numbers wrong, yeah?

Whats really disgusting is the rest of the Irish media have access to the same numbers but don't think that it's newsworthy.

06-08-2022 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119436424#Comment_119436424

Where did I make that claim?

PPS allocations are reported on a regular basis, across many news outlers, nothing new there.

Case in point

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0527/1301557-ukrainian-refugees/

The difference is gritp like to put their xenophobic slant on it

06-08-2022 6:13pm

More events like this should be encouraged around the country. It allows for exposure to other cultures and education and understanding of all the wonderful differences and similarities

RTE news : Families enjoy multicultural fest in the Phoenix Park

http://www.rte.ie/news/newslens/2022/0804/1313952-multicultural-festival-in-dublins-phoenix-park/

Strumms · 06-08-2022 6:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119433795#Comment_119433795

Supply vs demand

demand being too great, the extra numbers… hence they lost them. Had them for years into retirement… they didn’t win the lottery or have some other windfall. 🙂

lmao10 · 06-08-2022 6:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119435852#Comment_119435852

It's been a while since we had the "I was driving through X and saw some black people" posts.

malinheader · 06-08-2022 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119438201#Comment_119438201

If Driving through Letterkenny is anything to go by now we will need to change it to I was driving through x and saw some Irish people.

lmao10 · 06-08-2022 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119438286#Comment_119438286

What has this got to do with Conor McGregor losing his jobseekers because of immigrants?

Err.. perhaps nothing.. because maybe Conor McGregor doesn't qualify due to the MEANS TEST. The same way that the poster above has already said that his relatives don't qualify due to the means test. He seems to be saying that his family was getting it despite not being entitled to it but I could be wrong about that? He seems to say they had them for years and their circumstances didn't change. If that is the case and they were not entitled to then I think an investigation should be done and any monies received should be repaid and I would commend the poster for his honesty.

06-08-2022 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119438147#Comment_119438147

Your complete lack of comprehension of how means testing works has lead you to an incorrect conclusion.

It's honestly quite amusing as despite it being explained to you by probably 20 posters across multiple threads, you still insist on being wrong.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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