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Chennai Olympiad

124

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    Joe...are you bonkers? lol

    Look at boxing...winning an olympic gold medal is the pinnicle of any boxers wildest dreams. GM norms for Conor will be easy to come by ...he has proven he is GM material by a huge margin....having a gold medal will open many doors for invitations to GM norm tournaments for young Conor!

    edit....and there are 2 rounds to go....I would suggest it would be prudent to rest Conor tomorrow and then if neccessary he could play in the last round!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    From previous comments it looks like Conor is not going to be leading the board 2 standings.

    The tournament is not just about Conor and his team mates are playing for norms. Tarun is a win away against a GM from getting a norm and Conor should play if it means Tarun can play with white.

    Personally I do think it means more for the teams final standing over a rating performance prize. You cant compare boxing to chess. In chess the pinnacle is to become world champion and failing that is grandmaster. I dont know why you think Conor will stroll to GM he has played lots of GM norm tournaments recently and hasnt been successful. An 11 round norm can help significantly as there are tournaments where he can get a norm for 7 rounds - European Club Cup for example. A gold medal wont matter at all for tournament invitations.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I suppose first thing is to wait for the updated medal standings and see how they look.


    I think it'll be tight for gold/silver, but there might be a 40-point gap to bronze. So by not playing, the Greek may overtake him for gold but he could have silver almost wrapped up. Even that's a hell of an achievement. Certainly you can't help but think that the norms will come in due course but such a great medal chance might never come again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Trisha got her draw, avoiding the whitewash.

    In the Women's Olympiad, Polish board 3 Oliwia Kiolbasa has reached 9/9 after beating Praag's sister.

    Praag himself won a manic finish in which he was lost at one point, so India-2 drew with Azerbaijan. Uzbekistan will take the lead if they finish off Armenia which looks likely.


    I think it's a mental mistake to equate a board gold medal in the chess olympiad with a gold medal in the athletic Olympic Games. The latter means you have beaten all your rivals but in the chess olympiad it doesn't. Even if Conor finishes with 9.5/10 which would be a colossal result, it doesn't mean that he would have beaten Sarin and the others competing for the best Rp on board 2.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Absolute rubbish, the GM norm is far more important, and this notion that "oh there will be lots more GM norms for him" is fanciful also, maybe there will or maybe there wont, nobody knows the future.

    1) get the norm sorted

    2) then worry about medals



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    oops my browser, had not updated the thread, watching the footy. See my reply above, you are the one is bonkers!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    The tournament is not just about Conor and his team mates are playing for norms. Tarun is a win away against a GM from getting a norm and Conor should play if it means Tarun can play with white.

    ....

    best to wait and see......Conor not playing will bump Tom and Tarun up a board and that might actually be needed to enable them to actually get GM opponents.

    I would rest Conor tomorrow...give Tom and Tarun a shot and see what unfolds tomorrow. There is always Tuesday...Conor only needs to turn up for the GM norm. All will be a lot clearer after tomorrows play



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    I think joedryan's "rubbish" comment was addressed to cdeb not me?

    I too have read a lot of rubbish on this board today. Conor will surely want to play tomorrow and get his norm nailed down.

    Other decisions will depend on the opponent and colours and what Tarun requires, with Tom's outside norm chance also being taken into consideration. Either Alex or Mark will rest depending on what others need.

    The world has a funny way of punishing people who take things for granted. For example (far-fetched admittedly) if he rested tomorrow and then tested positive for Covid on Tuesday morning he would miss round 11 too and not get his norm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Surely the best would be to rest Alex on board 1, who is having a rough time anyway? Then all problems are solved and the rest get to go for their goals

    In any case it depends on the players, captain needs to talk to them and get a feel as to what they want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    I think it depends on what colours Ireland have. Prioritise getting Tarun white.

    Ireland have had 4 Olympic medals but zero home grown Gms!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    It was addressed to corkcitychess, not to you!

    Of course Conor will play tomorrow, first things first.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I do find it interesting that on balance (I think!) it's the stronger players who would rather the norm and the weaker players who'd rather the medal!


    I'm not sure final team placing comes into things too much - I don't know if anyone remembers where we finished in 2002, but Sam's medal was the big story from the event. Of course medal v a GM norm (maybe two if you count Tarun's remote chances) is a different story.


    We still won't have any home-grown GMs after this btw - I don't think either Conor or Tarun can count. Both were 2000+ when they first joined the ICU.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    The thing about medals in olympiads is that a lot of the time they are won by weaker teams because they have had weaker opposition, they just dont have the same respect as a GM norm, its not even a thing.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Isn't it harder to win a medal against weaker opposition given it's based on performance?


    Currently (after round 8) the medal winners are Gukesh D (India 2), Conor Murphy (Ireland), David Howell (England), Jakhongir Vakhidon (Uzbekistan - the tournament leaders) and Volodymyr Onyshchuk (Ukraine). That's great company. All those teams in the top 14 seeds (except us)


    There's only two IMs in the top 20 in the Board 2 rankings (including Conor). That seems a serious feat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Its based on your score as far as I know

    Unless they have changed it and I am talking rubbish :)

    You are right! Players assigned to the same board number compete for individual medals, awarded according to their performance rating:

    Anyway I stand by the point its still a secondary issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,034 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Where are you seeing these, or do you have to calculate them? (Not that I disbelieve you - just curious :P )



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    Tarun needs a win against any GM >2300 or 1.5/2 vs 2400 opposition including 1 GM. I wouldn't say his chances of a norm are remote.

    Tarun and Trisha both played in Kilkenny when they were much younger. Their first taste of Irish tournaments was Kilkenny in the James Mason(u1200) and watching Henry Li win!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    I think the team captain Carl could enquire if Conor already qualifies for a GM norm ? as he has already achieved it in theory as he only has to turn up to play...how many times have we seen last round games with no moves played and results submitted? Certainly all avenues have to be explored no matter how weak the link! and the FIDE committee will be there awarding titles etc.

    no such thing as a stupid question...the answer will only be yes or no!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    no moves played and results submitted? I dont think I have ever seen that, and it would be in breach of FIDE rules and probably lead to serious issues for the organizer, no FIDE arbiter would allow that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    the question can be asked if he qualifies for an 8 round GM norm .... it will be a yes or no...simple



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    The board 2 standings are updated so -


    Conor 2856

    Greece 2820

    Uzbekistan 2786

    India 2 2758


    It's actually hard to see him not get a medal of some description even if he plays one more game - so maybe now is the time to try be greedy and bring home norm and medal?


    2856 must be one of the greatest Irish performances at any tournament ever? I guess I look at that and think it's hard to see how he doesn't get norms in the future. He's not fallen over the line here; he's blitzed the norm requirements.


    Round 10 draw still pending



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I think norm rules don't allow that for an Olympiad event?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    Ireland play Switzerland tomorrow so Alex or Conor have to be dropped to give Tarun a shot...

    just as I suspected....and said earlier...and even that is not a give me that Tarun will get a GM if Switzerland rest any of their top 3

    https://chess-results.com/tnr653631.aspx?lan=1&art=20&fed=SUI&flag=30

    Looking like a long shot for Tarun now...always was on board 4

    I stand by my earlier board order comments that Alex would be getting just as many points on board 4 as board 1

    My team order would have been

    Conor, Tarun, Tom, Alex and Mark (although Tarun and Conor could also have been 1 & 2)

    had the team been Tarun, Conor, Tom, Alex and Mark...Conor might still be in a similar position and possibly Tarun and Tom in better norm positions.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Yeah, there's no way you can get away with that in an Olympiad on live boards



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    A very weak Maldives side face the women tomorrow - top board 1233. 4-0 the target surely.


    In terms of titles - again, so much as players are targeting WCM/WFM, Alice needs 1.5/2 for WFM, a win for Lara will confirm WCM (she has earned it now but would lose it with 0/1 more) and 0/1 for Eibhia will confirm WCM if she doesn't play final round.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Title regulations clearly state minimum 9 games unless the 9th game was missed due to a forfeit by the opponent, or in certain 8-game and 7-game events. So it's not even Carl worth asking that stupid question and making himself look like an idiot or a wannabe cheat.

    In the old days board prizes were probably on percentage score but it has been Rp lately I think.

    As noted above, Conor's lead over the Greek (who will play against Iceland tomorrow) is 36 points, over Yakkuboev it is 70 points and over Sarin it is 98 points.

    Of course the latter two will be playing in big matches both tomorrow and Tuesday against 2600+ opponents, and if they win they will greatly improve their Rp.

    Most relevant is that Yakkuboev's team (Uzbekistan) will play Sarin's team (India-2) and it is 99.9% certain they play each other. If they draw it will help Conor as then Yakkuboev's Rp would only slightly increase and Sarin's would slightly decrease. However if there was a winner that player would gain a lot while the other would fall out of the reckoning (except for bronze maybe).

    On the question of whether Tarun would get a GM opponent tomorrow if he plays board 3, I think it's not unknown for one team captain to ask another if they can facilitate a norm opportunity.

    More likely, though, this would happen before the last round. In theory Tarun doesn't actually need a GM opponent tomorrow as one in round 11 would do. Of course if Switzerland win we might not get a round 11 opponent who has enough GMs.

    So it might be worth Carl having a word with the Swiss captain - if he has a way of contacting him. Of course the reply might be that they would only do it if we rest Conor, and that probably wouldn't be an acceptable condition.

    The women's team badly need a morale-boosting win, that's clear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    well yes, but its not even that its just unthinkable, no event would even entertain that, it would just lead to such a loss of reputation and probably lead to banning from FIDE of any future events.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    "If they draw it will help Conor as then Yakkuboev's Rp would only slightly increase and Sarin's would slightly decrease."


    Surely both RPs would decrease as they'd both add a 2650 performance result to a 2750 performance average (give or take)


    Conor's RP went up 40 points with his win over 2550 today. The Greek's went up about 70 I think. So still some volatility there. Greece play Iceland, so a relatively low GM (probably 2540 if he takes white on 2) and a draw would be fantastic from Conor's point of view



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    @RooksPawn Title regulations clearly state minimum 9 games unless the 9th game was missed due to a forfeit by the opponent, or in certain 8-game and 7-game events. So it's not even Carl worth asking that stupid question and making himself look like an idiot or a wannabe cheat...

    it is a simple question...would Conor currently qualify for an 8 round norm? ...it would be a yes or no answer....not...lock this guy up and throw away the key.

    no such thing as a stupid question..... you should have paid attention at school....or maybe you were one of those children that was afraid to raise his hand in class? 😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    best off to not ask questions but follow the rule book, also for players work out the points yourself and dont rely on others



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,762 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    https://youtu.be/H9RSc3pHons?t=1812

    Conor gets a spot on today's Gotham recap.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    So Conor plays today - white on 1 v 2578. Means his norm is confirmed.


    Tarun has white on 3, but only against an IM.


    Alex and Diana sit out today



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    Tarun getting a GM norm on board 4 was always going to be a very long shot. Greece only fielded 2 GMs so that is probably that. With reference to some poster yesterday suggesting that Carl contact the Greek captain and ask that they field their 3 GMs to facilitate Taruns norm chance...well that WOULD be considered cheating and if Tarun won...match fixing even....totally unacceptable. I know England and Russia cheated many years ago by prearranging 4 draws ...Nigel Short apparently did it behind his captains back (Adam Raoof had no knowledge whatsoever).

    I would like to think that kind of cheating has been stamped out and if it happened today would result in disqualification for both teams.


    Anyway good chance Tarun will be on a higher board in 2024...He has already pre-qualified for the team by winning the Irish ch this year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    Good chance Tarun will be a GM before the next olympiad. The team will have to get a result against the Swiss to have a chance of playing a GM on 3/4 in the final game.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb



    There's a huge difference between pre-agreeing four draws and asking if it's possible to arrange a player to be up against a GM for norm purposes (given the GM is entirely at liberty to beat said player)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Quite, and that is what I meant. Such feelers to opposing captains are nothing to do with pre-arranging results.

    It is not cheating and has happened in reality in past olympiads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Tarun playing the good ol London system



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Alice avoided a scare there - 13. Re4 and 14. Re4 both seem to just win a piece.

    Edit - and instead, white goes wrong; Alice is winning a queen and that should be resignful now. Trisha is material up and Lara is about to win material, so that'll be a match win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Yes the women are heading for a 4-0 win but Alice (who has won already) did not need to play such a risky attack. Just 11...Bxe5 12 Re1 Ng4.

    EDIT: BTW, the Dvorkovich/Anand ticket won the FIDE Presidential election by a landslide yesterday. The opposition basically melted away. Has ICU consulted the membership at all or revealed how they decided to vote?

    Presumably Ireland voted for Dvorkovich. If so they should tell the Russian ambassador Filatov to give him something friendly about Ireland to report back to the Kremlin.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    With the norm for Conor confirmed, we may as well keep an eye on the gold medal too - the Greek GM looks like he has quite a difficult position to get a win out of against Iceland - Q, R, B+5 each, with the pawns all on the same side of the board. Sarin v Yakubboev is still level too, but there's only a queen, knight and pawn each off the board, so there's more play left in that one anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Trisha just won.

    Conor has, for the first time in this event, failed to get an opening advantage with White and seems to stand a bit worse. Of course there is a long way to go but let's hope he can draw at least and then sit out tomorrow. He is probably quite tired.

    (EDIT: after 22 a4 Conor is losing according to Stockfish14. If one can believe the chess24 assessment bar, Tom and Mark stand a bit worse and Tarun no longer has an edge.)


    In the top matches, India2 seem to have some advantage in the White games v Uzbekistan and the crazy board 4 game will probably be drawn now Adhiban's opponent has found the only move, 23 Re1. (Last-minute edit: White has not played the drawing line 28 Ne4 Rxe4 29 Qc8+ so all results are possible.)

    There has been a draw in board 3 of the India1 v Iran match.

    In match-2, the grudge encounter between Azerbaijan and Armenia, Mamedyarov seems to have forgotten his preparation, blitzing out 17 Qc2? instead of the critical 17 Rc1. So Armenia are favourites to win that match and the USA (resting Aronian) seem to have good chances to win.

    Hungary won board 1 v Ukraine in 19 moves and there have been a few draws elsewhere,



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Lara wins too - 3-0 there. Eibhia has a probably drawn ending but also has a very inexperienced opponent, so hopefully 4-0 still an option



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Conor loses - an unfortunate end to a great tournament. I know he gets the norm which is fantastic, but wouldn't it have been great to get both norm and medal?

    The other two relevant games are both level still, so I don't think even a bronze is out of the question, but I would expect his performance to drop 120 or so points after today, which might still leave him in bronze position.

    Of course, he could always come back for more tomorrow!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    I think Armenia and India 2 will be joint leaders after today, all set up for a great finale

    Congrats to Conor Murphy on his GM norm, an absolutely fantastic performance.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Some back-of-the-envelope calculations on the medal chances (while again acknowledging the norm, lest that not be forgotten 😀 )

    This is how I think it stands now, with the players from France, Cuba, Armenia, Holland and India 3 still playing but I've included their likely results (the games are all scored either level or a clear advantage).

    So you can see the fluctuation still caused by a decisive result, or even by a draw (as the top three players - the two tallies are the performance after round 9 and after round 10).

    So Conor could sit out tomorrow and hope results go his way, but I don't think it'd work out. He could give it another go and a win could well put him back into the top three. Or it may be best to just have a few drinks tonight and enjoy himself!





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Eibhia won her K and P ending to complete a welcome 4-0 sweep for the women.

    Tarun is our last player in action after four hours, having an ending with R+4P each. He has the outside passed pawn but probably it will be a draw and a disappointing 0.5-3.5 loss to Switzerland who are far from being the strongest team we met.

    I think tiredness and maybe a bit of over-optimism played a role but we will find out when the guys get home and tell us.

    Nevertheless there is a chance to end on a high tomorrow and whatever happens Conor and Tarun have had great results.

    Commentators are pointing out that the final round top match (5.30am start remember!) could be India-1 v India-2.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Gukesh's streak has ended in disaster against Abdusatturov. He missed wins, then rejected repetitions and ultimately blundered his knight to a fork. So India-2 v Uzbekistan ended 2-2 after the Indians had been winning the match for hours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,762 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    So it's going into round 11:

    Uzbekistan - 17

    Armenia - 17

    India 2 - 16

    USA - 16

    India 1 - 16

    I am missing anyone, it is hard to find the results!!! Are the Dutch still in touch?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,762 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Found it.

    India 2 v India 1 is a bit dodgy really, will FIDE do something about that you wonder!



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