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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Why are you listing all the outhalves who were nowhere near as good as Sexton? Some of those wouldn’t even be as good as Carberry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Is it possible to be elite with a fair but average out half? That's one for us post Sexton.

    I don't know if it is. We aren't blessed with world class players. So, how does a side compete minus their best player? Unlike N.Z and S.A, we have limited options. Even England have struggled when their 10 is not elite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    What exactly are you defining as elite though. same with world class? we most likely will have a drop off when JS does finish as its natural considering level JS has produced over the years. that isnt necessarily a problem



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    No! I'm talking about a top 3 team! I.E, A serious contending side that would be threat to win a 6nations or even a world cup.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    South African fans don't seem particularly happy with Elton Jantjes, from what I've read.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I think we could execute our current game plan with Burns and Carty. They have an ability to attack the line that's necessary for it to work. Carbery hasn't shown he can do the same, as evidenced in the Argentina game in Nov.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Carbery got Man of the Match in that game. It was definitely a little generous, but as far as I recall, he wasn’t bad in that game from an attacking perspective by any means. His bigger issue is definitely in defence imo.

    But the bigger issue for Ireland is that there isn’t much between any of the 3 OH’s you’ve listed in your post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Watching the highlights, which obviously cut out a lot of the game, Carbery barely features at all. His only notable involvement in a try is stepping in at scrumhalf for a few rucks close to the try line. He hasn't shown an attitude to attack the gainline, or to dictate the course of play to the rest of the team.





  • Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Neither Burns nor Carty have ever actually shown they can do this either.

    They're both pretty mediocre players and Carty in particular is just too flawed at the basics to ever be an option.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    That's just patently untrue, both at club level and their too brief appearances in green. They are better readers of the game and more fluent in atrack than Carbery.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    If you want to argue that they could do it if given more chances in green, fair enough, but no way have either of them shown any of these qualities for the national side to date.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,679 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    It was very generous. He was very good when he was moved to 15 for the last 30mins against a beaten Argentinian team who had a player sent off after 60mins. Before that he didn’t play particularly well and all the tries were scored up front.

    It was noticeable at the time that we had more shape in attack when Harry Byrne came on after 50 despite him forcing things and making a few errors.

    Carbery has been at his best at 15 where he has extra time, can take the ball in two hands and either take a man on or put a player in space. He’s an instinctive player with an eye for a gap. Organising a backline/attack isn’t a strength which is all the more obvious when he replaces Sexton.

    Unfortunately his chance to stake a claim at 15 is long gone. His defence is a big question as this stage. Graham Henry didn’t do him any favours with anointing him as the future out half all those years ago. I think Leo and Lancaster got it right when they saw him as a 15 and second playmaker.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    They've had shag all opportunity to do so, despite demonstrating form for club level. Which Carbery has not



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,074 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Frawley is the only pretender who has really shown he has the stones for Test level.

    Not just that, but I feel he's nowhere near his ceiling yet, such is the rate at which he does improve, game to game. And he's a unit.

    I can't wait to him see him get a bunch of game time in the early season, hopefully loads of it at 10.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,710 ✭✭✭Shehal


    The thing is as a rugby player he's very good and definitely good enough for test level without question, the main issues are him controlling a game at 10 and that's a big problem because if that part of you're game is lacking then it doesn't really matter what else you have as a 10.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Frawley is the only pretender who has really shown he has the stones for Test level.

    As far as I’m aware, the Māori games aren’t Test caps.

    So, by definition, he hasn’t.

    Equally, Carbery has kicked a number of important, pressure kicks off the bench in his Ireland career. “Stones” isn’t the issue. Ability is.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I don’t have much argument there, but the larger point I’m making is that I don’t see the alternatives being much of an improvement (if an improvement at all).



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Hansen did ok this summer but I think that 14 jersey is just made for Robert Baloucoune come November.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I think they'll probably stick with Hansen. Baloucoune was fit for the Italy match in the 6N, if memory serves, but they still stuck Hansen at 14.

    I'd like to see Baloucoune get a bit of gametime at 13 for Ulster. If he could cover outside centre as well as both wings he'd be a real option as #23 if he doesn't get the nod to start on the right wing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Obviously we will never know but I'd say Balacoune almost certainly would have started a test if he'd travelled. Hansen has a playmaking ability though that none of our other wingers have, Lowe does as well but in a different way, but Hansen has a really nice pass.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former



    Considering Carbery missed nearly two years of rugby, whatever these guys lack, opportunity was not it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Hansen has showed a very strong nous for playmaking that I don't think Baloucoune (or indeed any of the wing options) have and it's going to make Mack a pretty difficult player to shift.

    Looking at the try from the 3rd test, he draws and gives a sublime skip pass at the perfect time to release Lowe.

    He's stepped in at first receiver a lot and you can see from his play he's played 10 at a pretty high level which he did for the Brumbies (this is not me volunteering another player to the tiresome 10 debate btw...)

    Given he has pace and a killer instinct for the tryline of his own, I think he's going to be a harder player to get that jersey off than most



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,710 ✭✭✭Shehal


    It might sound ridiculous to some now but if he can somehow get a injury free season, relatively, I wouldn't be surprised if Tommy O'Brien comes from nowhere and challenges. I personally think he would be an international by now if it wasn't for his horrendous injury run. I agree about Mack Hansen and his play making ability is what edges him the 14 shirt over others but I would still say of all positions 9-15 Hansen's is the one that's truly up for grabs if enough players show some good form, if he can somehow find his 2018 form Stockdale could challenge for the 11 shirt but it's difficult to see Lowe being ousted bar a long injury spell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    He is a good playmaker, but our backline is stacked with good playmakers (Ringrose, Aki, Henshaw, Keenan, Lowe), but nobody with out and out pace. No strike runners who can create scores from nothing and genuinely scare defences. We don't have a Jordan/LRZ/Korobeite/Kolbe/Watson type player. It's something we really lack IMO.

    I've never seen him play 10 and I don't think he's ever started a game at 10, certainly not at senior level.

    Given he has pace and a killer instinct for the tryline of his own

    He hasn't scored a try since February and has 1 try in 6 tests, so I don't agree with this.

    I'd also have question marks over his defence. He's very skinny for an international rugby player and he get's overpowered in contact a lot. He's a good player, but I'm not convinced he should be a regular starter for us.

    For those that think Baloucoune can't playmake..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The jersey is definitely Hansen's to lose.

    Farrell doesn't seem to be hugely enamoured with Baloucoune



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Baloucoune rightly lost out to Hansen in the starting 15 at the 6N (for, I think, the one game Bobby was fit?) but was name-checked by Farrell when he sustained his injury that ruled him out from the NZ tour.


    "Doesn't seem to be hugely enamoured" seems a bit wide of the mark - wouldn't be surprised if he's rated ahead of Larmour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    As an Ulster fan, I'd love to see him in there but I think Hansen's solidly first choice (although I suspect Baloucoune's defence is better).


    I wouldn't put players like Keenan,Aki or possibly Ringrose in the same category as Hansen in terms of being able to create opportunities for other players. So I completely understand the attraction of fielding him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Keenan is a far better playmaker than Ringrose.

    Baloucoune is a miles better defender than Larmour.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Don't think Farrell is particularly enamoured with Larmour either... he seems to prefer the winger who comes infield and gets involved rather than the guy who's going to score from 60 metres out.

    He obviously sees something in Baloucoune but there's a disconnect between his selections and posters thinking he'll be the starting wing.



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