Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

I follow 5 African American feminists and I'm the pope.

You seem foreign to the concept that black people can be bigoted too? Homophobia is famously rampant among Black Americans for example.

This doesn't get us any closer to how "the science" you find so contemporary and compelling is not simply phrenology 2.0 for another age and another segregation target.

Also your race based argument against me being white only reinforces my observations here.

Yes.

If Blacks have held the 200m mens record ro 28 years how is that not unfair to whites, if Usain bolt racing as a woman is unfair to women?

Chattel Slavery for whites?

I hit the nail on the head. Already found someone to defend slavery as not racist. Convinced more than ever of the bigotry fueling this antitrans guff.

So only Black slaves count?

I said not necessarily racist or do you believe that keeping someone of the same ethnicity as a slave is racist.

What do I care which influence is greater, good enough for me that you acknowledge both are influences, and a source of bigotries.

Really the wrong hill to die on trying to equivocate indentured slavery to chattel slavery though, speaking of "which is greater." Both are terrible, but trying to "all slaves matter" the argument is a tad too ironic.

That person is doubling down on their pretence that the reason for sports being segregated by biological sex is due to bigotry. When it's (obviously, as we all know) due to differences in the male body and the female body…

More accurately, it’s something that’s claimed anyway, as the reason for sports being segregated. The reason for segregation in sports, from a historical perspective, is that the men who organised the sports, didn’t want women participating. It wasn’t unusual at the time that women were regarded as being inferior to men and were only suited to making and minding babies and children - confined to their domestic domain, excluded from public life, never mind getting any notions of participation in sports, because anything women did that wasn’t expected of them, was regarded as unladylike and a threat to the natural social order which dictated that a small group of men were superior to all beneath them.

They didn’t just think this of women, they thought it of whole groups of people in society based upon their characteristics and social standing. They maintained their dominant social standing by ensuring that nobody could ever be in a position to threaten their dominant position. Even they knew then that were everyone to be regarded as being of equal value, it would mean they could no longer regard themselves as superior to everyone else beneath them. They justified the maintaining of the social order under the premise that it was divinely ordained, and when they couldn’t argue it was divinely ordained any more, they had to come up with all sorts of “scientific evidence” to support their bigoted beliefs, not just about themselves, but about the people they regarded themselves as superior to.

Ensuring women couldn’t participate in sports had nothing to do with differences in male and female bodies; it had, and still has, everything to do with claiming that men are superior to women, and in the interests of being “fair”, women are relegated to participating in sports separately from men. The fact that women also enjoy far less reward for their participation is somehow seen as “fair” too, and excluding people who are transgender from participating in sports is just more of the same thing as has been evidenced throughout human history - their exclusion isn’t based upon scientific evidence. It can’t be, because there simply aren’t enough numbers of people who are transgender participating in sports in order to determine anything.

The vast majority of those participants who are transgender, like most participants in any sports, have never won, and will never win anything. They participate because of their passion for the sport and for the idea at least, that they might win. There are other factors of course such as the opportunities offered to those participating in sports and the sense of community that participating in sports gives it’s participants.

For some people, sports are all about winning, but for other people they are motivated by other reasons. Assuming it’s obvious that all participants in sports think the same way as each other is what would be preposterous, just as preposterous as suggesting that Government should have called off the marriage equality referendum because Paddy Manning objected to it on the grounds that marriage is a legal institution with a purpose: Children -

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-20329976.html

He clearly didn’t think that one through, any more than anyone who would imagine all people on the basis of their characteristics they have in common should, or would, think the same way.

I’m certainly not a feminist either, no interest in that particular political or social ideology, but that whole crock of suggesting that anyone who argues in favour of treating people fairly without discrimination as to their sex, gender or sexual orientation must be a this, that or the other? That’s next levels of no true Scotsman fallacious nonsense. It sure as hell isn’t based upon any legitimate scientific reasoning or any credible scientific evidence whatsoever. It’s a purely political stance.

What do I care what you ommited when you said slavery? You called me bigoted and transphobic for calling out your omission.

I didn't say chattel slavery and indentured slavery are the same I said both are slavery and slavery in all forms is wrong. However you are so bigoted you only see chattel slavery as slavery unless indentured slavery is pointed out to you because it was black people.

A better Irish or other white male runner might get closer to Bolt. No woman has managed Flo Jo's time in 30 years even though training shoe's etc have improved.

You don't care that sex is a greater difference than race because it doesn't suit your agenda. Take other sports and you might find white people dominate and others like where there is no difference. Now show me the equivalent in sex segregated sports.

And you seem to be uncomfortable to the fact that there are still race differences evidenced, which is very incongruent with your own agenda.

My agenda is what, inclusivity? History has shown us how evergreen this hill is.

Ah ffs

I don’t think anyone has ever argued that biology doesn’t matter though, it’s the discrimination based upon gender or sex that they take issue with and refer to as bigotry, not biology. That being said, I wouldn’t refer to anyone as bigoted because I know well it’s inflammatory.

Personally, if this becomes a thing I can see female athletes protesting, disrupting and boycotting events… id fully support them.

There’s no evidence whatsoever for that presumption though. The rules are what limits anyone’s participating in sports, not their anatomy. Well, the rules and being told they don’t belong in the sport, and if you want an example of irony, being subjected to all manner of horrific abuse -

https://amp.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2021/jul/30/murky-elite-sport-women-tokyo-games-abuse-sexualisation

https://amp.dw.com/en/indias-female-athletes-contend-with-sexual-harassment-in-sports/a-62110783

https://www.sportanddev.org/en/article/news/sexual-harassment-sport

Harassment which scores of women involved in sports receive on a daily basis, even easier for anyone who is of a mind to do so in the online virtual space, who bear no consequences for their actions, egged on by their supporters. It’s an attempt to put people off something they want to do.

If you want another example of irony - it only makes people more determined that they won’t be shoved out of the sport, and they have their supporters too behind them, both women and men alike who don’t share your perspective.

Erica Sullivan put it well -

Many of those who oppose transgender athletes like Lia being able to participate in sports claim to be "protecting women's sports." As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women's sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership. Transgender girls and women are nowhere on this list. Women's sports are stronger when all women—including trans women—are protected from discrimination, and free to be their true selves.

https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192?amp=1

We could still have Conor McGregor, and we could have Erica Sullivan.

An observation based upon your own prejudices, that confirms your own prejudices?

I for one, am shocked at this totally objective observation… revelation, even.

Yet another astute observation based upon your own prejudices 👍

By that standard, I can’t imagine what you make of the walls of boring sophistry which make up the rules of participation in any particular sport. I’ve no doubt you’ve read them all, in spite of any evidence of ever having done so. Naturally enough, when they express a point of view which you share, their output is riveting and they’re making great and honest contributions and they’re as invested and interested in any sport as you are!

It’s really not incredible how that works.

The disadvantage of transitioning is less than the male female disadvantage.

I don’t know what criteria you’re using to make that comparison in order to come to the conclusion you have, but it’s clearly not true in the cases of athletes who we know have transitioned, and been subjected to vilification on an international scale. We also know it’s not true of athletes who have refused to undergo any form of attempts to coerce them to adjust their natural physiology which it is claimed bestows upon them an unfair advantage in the events in which they wish to compete in, and they too have received similar vilification on an international scale, with the intent to either have them conform, or push them out of the sport with the intended effect that it sends a message to anyone who might get any notions.

The sports won’t impact anything; the way any sport is organised is what has a greater impact on whether or not people are attracted to the sport, for any infinite number of personal reasons. It could well be for the fame and glory of international recognition, or it could be because they feel like they belong in the sport among people who they identify with, or it could be that sport offers them opportunities they wouldn’t have in other domains such as academia. Caitlyn Jenner, as an example, saw sports as an avenue to opportunities that wouldn’t otherwise have been available to them as a consequence of being dyslexic, and that’s what drove them to be successful, which, as we now know, success came with it’s own personal pitfallls -

Talking about the impact that struggling with dyslexia and gender dysphoria had on her sporting career, Jenner said: “Being gender dysphoric and dyslexic - that’s what made me down the line. When I got into sports, it became more important for me to succeed at sports and work hard at sports because of all these issues.”

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/other-sport/athletics/caitlyn-jenner-opens-up-effect-20829408.amp

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that boys or men would be over-represented at any level in women’s sports, or that they would be denying girls and women any place in sports. Even in the case of Lia Thomas where an athlete who didn’t qualify for the national competitions held Lia Thomas personally responsible for her failing to qualify, by suggesting that had Lia Thomas been excluded from participating, she would have qualified (the argument being that Lia Thomas took her place), this argument ignores the fact that the same athlete was eligible to qualify for her national team, and qualify and participate and represent her nation at the Olympics -

Reka Gyorgy, who competed at the 2016 Olympics for Hungary and now swims for Virginia Tech, wrote a letter to the NCAA, objecting to Thomas’s participation. 

“This is my last college meet ever and I feel frustrated. It feels like that final spot was taken away from me because of the NCAA’s decision … I know you could say I had the opportunity to swim faster and make the top 16, but this situation makes it a bit different and I can’t help but be angry or sad. It hurts me, my team and other women in the pool,” she wrote.

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/21/lia-thomas-victory-at-ncaa-swimming-finals-sparks-fierce-debate-over-trans-athletes

Similar arguments were made in other domains that the equal participation of one group would be to the detriment of the dominant group, such as the idea of giving women the opportunities to participate as equals in the labour market would be to the detriment of men. History has shown that prediction to have been untrue, not that there was ever any truth to it in the first place as it was simply based upon fearmongering and the way things were then. They have since evolved and changed and it has been of greater benefit to everyone in society, and still there is nobody who is forced into anything as the argument is being portrayed here by way of suggesting that any woman would be forced into an unfair position such as having to fight Conor McGregor or anyone like him. There are plenty of men who wouldn’t lower themselves to McGregors level either, so I’m not sure why the argument exists that women would be forced to do so.

I’m guessing you’re not familiar with the concept of respectability politics, though you practice it very well it has to be said.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics

Imagine if I actually cared what people who are completely unknown to me thought of me personally, I might even shut up 😂