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IRFU Transgender Women Policy Change

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,173 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Have to hand it to OTB, this is a considered and objective piece.

    I'd encourage anyone to listen to the end for Ross Tucker's contribution about the science.

    In essence, puberty gives a born male a 30-50% strength advantage over his born female counterpart. Testosterone suppression only corrects 7-10 percentage points of that. There really is no getting around that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,114 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Yes true.

    Well as long as no major surgery's have yet taken place they can always transition back but if surgery's have taken place eg: in the case of Female to male the removal of the Womb/Uterus and overies well then it would be much harder to detransition and on the case of a male to female bottom surgery. These should only really happen once they are adults, they have seen psychologists and consent to it.

    Hormones too will make big bodily changes in the case of the male to female that would be breasts, Softer skin, less thick hair growth on the body, less muscle more fat, hips and less dense bones and shrinkage of the testicles and penis that is not so easily reversed and in the case of a female to male it would be denser bones, more muscle less fat, hair growth on the face and body much more than before and no breast development of female fat distribution as it would be less fat more muscle.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    That's not the IRFUs problem, nor is it the problem for women that these people would be competing against. That's a separate discussion. The IRFU can only legislate for what's in front of them and That's what they've done based on the science. Clearly they have not rushed into it as there were some already competing



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    The lack of compassion by some fools here never fails to astound me.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,845 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This is a serious and sensitive subject. This is also not Twitter. Lazy posts like this won't be tolerated.

    This also goes for any post that can be interpreted as transphobic. Anyone calling them men will be infracted or banned.

    There will be a low tolerance for nonsense in this thread.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    How is this policy enforceable? Will there be an IRFU genital inspector rocking up at junior rugby games? Will any women who don't look feminine enough be challenged? Its a nonsense decision aiming to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

    Also the "transwoman can still participate asa ref" line in the IRFU statement is so tone deaf and patronising.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,299 ✭✭✭Cork2021




  • Administrators Posts: 53,845 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I would think it'd be enforced the same way all the other eligibility rules are enforced?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,238 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Sensible decision imho.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,845 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I'm not sure I agree with the idea that there's no issue in social rugby.

    Players at that level aren't doing any serious S&C, and the average male body is going to be stronger than the average female body. Like, there is a reason that all of the social inter-sex stuff that's organised is non-contact.

    I saw this on Twitter from a club in response to the IRFU:

    The fact that their camp is non-contact is implicit agreement that there is careful consideration needed as to what level of mixing is appropriate when it comes to full contact rugby, a fact I think has sailed over their head.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    Which is? I've played rugby for almost 15 years and I don't remember ever having any aspect of my eligibility checked. Will they have to introduce checks for the women's game only?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    They aren't set up as a fully fledged contact team yet, this camp being non contact has nothing to do with the potential attendance of trans people at it.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,845 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    What do you think would happen if you rocked up on Saturday morning to try play for one of the underage teams? Or if I turned up and decided I wanted to play for the women's team? Or if some AIL player decided he was going to tog out for the J10s instead?

    There are already all sorts of exclusionary rules in sport, this is just another one. I don't think enforcement will be difficult, I think any clubs that have transgender members will be aware of it and the issue will be handled sensitively.

    Enforcement of this is certainly a lot more viable than enforcement of a case-by-case approach, IMO.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,845 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Even if they were a fully-fledged contact team, and they had teams entered in the various leagues, I can guarantee you the chances of such a camp being full contact are zero.

    And you are correct, it's not specifically because of transgender people, it's because you cannot safely run a full contact rugby camp without starting to segregate.

    I hope their camp is very successful, but they are proving nothing. There is nothing to stop transgender people playing non-contact rugby at any rugby club in the country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,414 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    There's nothing stopping transgender players playing contact rugby either.

    Trans players can play with their biological sex and trans men afaik can play on the men's teams subject to assessment for their own safety.

    It's only trans women that cannot play on women's teams.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    “What if I as a man rocked down to a woman’s session” is an argument that perpetuates the idea that trans women are just “blokes in dresses”. Surely if you have opinions on trans people you would know that transitioning takes years and isn’t something that is entered into lightly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    That's fair enough.

    The issue is that transitioning doesn't mean you lose all the extra mass and muscle that you accumulated as a biological man, no matter how many years it takes, and you cannot discount that in a contact sport.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    A case-by-case policy is impossible. What are the criteria going to be? If you get a bit too good then suddenly you are kicked out? If you get a bit less athletic you are let back in? It's more legally dubious as well I suspect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    And in the case of a trans woman that has taken puberty blockers?



  • Administrators Posts: 53,845 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    That was not the point I was making, and if this is aimed at me I think you're being deliberately reductive of my point.

    The question was how could you enforce transgender men being prevented from playing womens rugby, my response was they do it the same way they prevent men playing womens rugby, or the same way they stop men playing underage rugby. I was not insinuating that transgender women are men, or blokes in dresses.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't think they are restricted? I haven't seen the details of this one, but at least the WR policy which this is based off does not put any restrictions on those who have not undergone male puberty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    “Registered female at birth” or however it is worded would exclude trans women who did not go through a male puberty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭joedamuss


    Finally common sense has prevailed in this crazy world !!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    World Rugby guideline defines it as someone who was male at birth and went through a testosterone driven puberty

    Took me less than a minute to find that out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭jackal


    Good decision for woman's sport, I am happy enough that people are/want to be trans and give them the same respect as anyone else.

    However for too long females have had to compete against trans women even when it appeared to be farcically unfair. They were told to be inclusive and shut up.

    Glad to see that the reality and safety issues of male bodied athletes competing with female bodied athletes has been acknowledged and fairness restored.

    In most other aspects of life I abhor discrimination but sports are unique and require discrimination or male bodied athletes would win everything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    And this is the crux of it. A case by case basis would almost certainly result in the IRFU being brought before the courts for discrimination. As it is a case is about to be filed relating to head injuries where every minute detail of the Union's health and safety protocols will come under intense scrutiny. In the current climate the IRFU's decision is completely understandable.

    Furthermore, the Union are clearly segregating the women's game based on participant's sex rather than their gender. This is important as it recognises the inherent advantages enjoyed by female trans athletes over their competitors whilst also being respectful of their gender identity.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    It’s not a lazy post. You have people in here who are essentially celebrating this. There is nothing to celebrate here, no matter what side of the debate you’re on, because two women have been told they can’t play a sport by a governing body that has preached for years saying that everyone is welcome. They’re going to be feeling shunned and very low right now and there are people who have never set foot in the rugby forum now deciding to contribute because trans women are involved.

    If people here (and there are some) want to celebrate this then they are completely devoid of any compassion whatsoever. That is a fact and it’s not an opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    What's the consensus amongst female players regarding trans women playing in their divisions? I'm only seeing men commenting on what's fair/safe for them, while any female reaction i see on social media is opposing the IRFU ruling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It's interesting that IRFU, RFU and World Rugby are being sued by ex-players over chronic head trauma. Those cases will stand or fall on what the unions knew, when they knew it and what they could have done differently.

    Now imagine a female rugby player gets tackled by a trans woman who has enormous size and strength advantage over her, and she gets seriously injured. The injured player sues the IRFU. There's a World Rugby policy which says trans women should not be allowed play for safety reasons. The RFU have banned it.

    What defence would the IRFU possibly have? Genuine question.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,173 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    'Celebrating' would be a strong word.

    Its good for everyone that there is clarity. Its good that it happened before it was forced to happen, due to some incident or legal action. Its good that the Union are out in front of this issue.

    Its a positive for game development and integrity. Thats all.



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