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Energy infrastructure

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Renewables below 3% at the present time. No wonder they have an orange warning out.

    Pity we do not have lots of solar out their reaping all that free energy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wind is predictable so the decrease in wind was easily forecasted.

    Per the statement from EirGrid, note the bolded section


    In a statement, Eirgrid said: "The alert means that the buffer between the demand for electricity and the available supply is currently smaller than optimum. It does not indicate a loss of electricity supply to customers.


    "The reasons for this System Alert state are low wind, limited electricity imports and forced outages at a number of generators.


    "Just over one third of conventional generation is currently unavailable out of a total capacity of 6.3 gigawatts.


    "However, it is anticipated that the situation will improve over the coming hours as some generators return to service."




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    It's the paragraph after the bolded one that worries me. If that happens at 5pm on a cold winter's evening and there's not much wind then we'll have a problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so




  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    On wind, came across this informative site. Some posters may already know it.

    Cheery comment at the top of the page!

    Ireland has 46 offshore wind projects. Only 2 are operational and none of the rest are in the build phase.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Europes largest solar farm got switched on yesterday, 590MW, in Spain.

    Also from the article:

    The EU is set to mark a new record for solar capacity this year with around 39GW forecast to be added, according to industry group SolarPower Europe. Expected PV installations would top the 2021 high water-mark of 27GW, and also be higher than the 29.9GW expected before the Russian invasion of Ukraine.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The EU ban on Russian coal goes into effect at midnight tonight. Did we source our coal from there for Moneypoint or somewhere else?




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Apogee


    ESB used to import coal from Colombia but switched to Russia due to human rights issues at the Colombian mines.

    The company's giant coal-burning plant has also stoked controversy over where it sources its coal. Three years ago, ESB came under pressure from human rights groups over its importation of coal from the Cerrejon mine in Columbia, which had been under the microscope for human rights violations. As a result, it switched to importing coal from Russia but now finds itself having to swiftly reverse out of the Russian market to abide by European Union sanctions on Moscow over Ukraine. “ESB sources coal for Moneypoint on international markets. Russian coal accounted for almost all of the coal consumed in Moneypoint in 2021,” the ESB said.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/coal-burning-moneypoint-might-be-key-to-ireland-s-energy-future-1.4849254

    They've recently faced criticism for switching back to Colombia




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Apparently, a decision on Shannon LNG is due by Sep 9




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There’s as much chance of Eamon Ryan part funding the project as that deadline being met.

    Itll likely drag on and on with the usual suspects trying to scupper it. Maybe the blackouts this winter might refocus some minds.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah no hope of that deadline being met. ABP went back looking for more info last week and its unlikely that info will be provided and reviewed in time for that deadline so I think its safe to say there's no decision likely on this before the xmas if ABP maintain form in terms of extension durations.

    On a side note, if this gets approval and gets built its going to be an expensive source as it won't be allowed to accept fracked gas from the US so will have to source from Qatar or elsewhere



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    But .. we're not short of gas . Generation capacity maybe .

    And just because you build a re gasification plant ,doesn't mean there's corresponding liquification plant and lng tankers.

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight




  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    If Shannon LNG is built, it would almost certainly import fracked gas, because the company which wants to build it is New Fortress Energy, and most of the gas they produce is produced by fracking. I don't think Shannon LNG could be used to import gas from Qatar, because New Fortress Energy would own and operate the facility and as far as I know, all of their gas comes from the U.S.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Would be interesting to see what would happen if ABP approved it but with a condition that it could not import fracked gas per the govt stance.

    Probably be challenged and would add years more to the timeline if they did challenge it



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Apogee


    New Fortress Energy have previously claimed they wouldn't trade in fracked gas in Shannon

    New Fortress Energy, the multinational giant behind the plan, said it would not trade in fracked gas via the North Kerry terminal, obtaining LNG extracted through other means.

    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/its-a-choice-between-lng-coming-into-north-kerry-or-putin-having-europe-over-a-barrel-41488307.html?

    Niall Collins of FF was pushing recently for Shannon LNG but with non-fracked gas. The Programme for Government specifically talks about fracked gas, so there may exist some political wriggle room.

    As Ireland moves towards carbon neutrality, we do not believe that it make sense to develop LNG gas import terminals importing fracked gas. Accordingly, we shall withdraw the Shannon LNG terminal from the EU Projects of Common Interest list in 2021.We do not support the importation of fracked gas and shall develop a policy statement to establish that approach.

    https://assets.gov.ie/130911/fe93e24e-dfe0-40ff-9934-def2b44b7b52.pdf



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭MightyMunster


    Is this not planned to take 3 years to build once planning etc is granted so won't do much to prevent blackouts until winter 2026 at the earliest. In fact I'm sure some electricity will be used in the construction so would actually make the situation worse in the short term



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This will be in the courts for years if ABP approve it. I don't think there's much chance of this being up and running before 2030 to be honest



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    That's a rock and a hard place for them. Needs must as they say. Human rights issues can be resolved, coal from Russia unlikely to ever happen again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,664 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Truss has said she'll remove the UKs ban on fracking, so we're likely to end up using fracked gas here anyway.

    She's handing away a pile of seats in Cumbria and the South West back to the Lib Dems if she does that though, so may backtrack.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    At least it’s an option I suppose.

    Do we know the capacity of the terminal yet? As in how many m3 the terminal can provide per day etc (or however it’s measured).



  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    Ireland cannot ban the importation of fracked gas under EU law, according to this policy statement:

    If I'm not mistaken, this means that New Fortress Energy cannot be stopped importing fracked gas through Shannon LNG if and when they build it, assuming that EU law doesn't change in relation to fracked gas imports.



  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    I completely disagree with the statement that New Fortress Energy will not trade in fracked gas.

    New Fortress Energy have admitted to the Security and Exchange Commission (in the U.S.) that they would use hydraulic fracturing in Pennsylvania. Over 99% of the gas produced in Pennsylvania is fracked. The American LNG exporting industry only exists because of the American fracking industry.

    The Irish government, in their policy statement on the importation of fracked gas, have said that the only way that lots of fracked gas could enter the Irish gas network is through LNG importing terminals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    I don't see any reason to believe that Shannon LNG will not import fracked gas from the U.S. if the UK restarts fracking and exports some fracked gas to Ireland. I would say that Ireland importing no fracked gas at all would be great, but Ireland importing fracked gas from the UK only would be better than importing it from both countries.

    I firmly disagree with building any new fossil fuel infrastructure at all.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its honestly getting difficult to keep track of all the bits the govt are setting up for offshore wind development

    We have

    • National Marine Planning framework
    • Marine Area Planning and Consent
    • Maritime Area Planning Agency (MARA)
    • Offshore Renewable Energy Development Plan (OREDP) and ORDEP II

    and just announced, the Offshore Wind Delivery Taskforce

    From the link: (Note it talks about 5GW, but thats already out of date as thats been increased to 7GW by 2030)

    The work of the offshore wind delivery taskforce is framed by the overarching objective of deploying 5GW of offshore wind energy by 2030, as part of the Government’s objective of up to 80% of Ireland's electricity being met from renewable sources by 2030.

    The key objectives of the Taskforce are to:

    • develop a system wide project plan, collating all activities underway across departments and agencies to ensure delivery of offshore wind and related targets;
    • identify all aspects of work on the critical path, identify gaps, any areas of duplication, opportunities, potential for synergies and proactively manage risks to drive ensure delivery;
    • identify opportunities to accelerate and align delivery of medium-term outcomes;
    • ensure the potential benefits from establishing the offshore wind industry are maximised;
    • ensure consistent messaging to the public and all stakeholders on what is happening regarding offshore wind energy and the benefits that will be delivered; and
    • ensure alignment in the development of the ORE sector with work being progressed to improve and protect marine biodiversity through designation of Marine Protected Areas

    The member organisations are:

    • Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage;
    • Department of Transport;
    • Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment;
    • Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science;
    • Department of Public Expenditure and Reform;
    • Department of Rural and Community Development,
    • Enterprise Ireland;
    • Commission for Regulation of Utilities; and
    • EirGrid.

    Within our 5GW objective, medium-term/interim outcomes will guide the initial work of the delivery taskforce and the system wide acceleration of offshore wind development. The proposed outcomes include ensuring that -

    • At least 5GW of offshore wind is procured and consented (or significantly progressed through planning) by 2025 and on track for delivery by 2030;
    • All aspects of the regulatory framework related to the construction and operational phases of offshore wind projects, including the safety framework, is fully scoped, developed and in place by end 2023;
    • All Grid projects required for 2030 are designed and going through consenting process and on track for delivery of 2030 targets;
    • The potential economic and societal benefits from establishing the offshore wind industry are maximised (ports/supply chain/jobs);
    • A strategy and implementation plan is developed for ORE development beyond 2030; including key milestones for floating offshore wind.
    • The supply chain and skills capability, including ecological and environmental, is in place for maximisation of benefit to Ireland and to guarantee delivery success; and
    • Alignment in the development of the Offshore Renewable Energy sector with work being progressed to improve and protect marine biodiversity through designation of Marine Protected Areas (MPAs), Marine Special Areas of Conservation (SACs) and Marine Special Protection Areas (SPAs) and implementation of the Birds, Habitats and Marine Strategy Framework Directives more broadly

    As mentioned, the OREDP has been updated. The first one was focused on the East and Southeast coasts. The new one is focused on the whole EEZ with a view to having at least 30GW of offshore

    The OREDP I is currently guiding the State’s policy approach to achieving 5GW of ORE by 2030, mostly through fixed-bottom wind turbines in relatively shallow waters of up to 70 metres off the east and southeast coasts.

    The OREDP II assessment encompasses the maritime area covering all of Ireland’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), which reaches up to 200 nautical miles or 370 km off the coast. The plan will consider advances in technology to assess the offshore renewable energy (ORE) potential in Irish waters. It will seek to map areas most suitable for ORE using the latest data available on a range of themes including other maritime activities and marine biodiversity.

    The OREDP II will assist in delivering the Programme for Government commitment to develop a long-term plan to take advantage of a potential of at least 30GW of floating wind off the Atlantic coast and become a major contributor to a pan-European renewable energy generation and transmission system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    We need gas as a transitional fuel supply until at least 2050.

    We depend on a non EU country to get 70% of that gas.

    Why would you not want to build CNG tanks for 30 days worth of NG as backup and/or an LNG terminal to replace some or all of the gas that we might not receive via Moffat?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Because an LNG terminal will cost billions and the cost will be past onto the consumer here in Ireland. This LNG terminal will lead to higher gas and electricity prices.

    Also we don't need LNG for storage, we will probably use Corrib for storage as it starts to run out, like we use to do with Kinsale (and really should have kept going for a few more years).

    LNG really isn't the silver bullet solution some people think it is. It really doesn't do anything to guarantee security of supply, you have to hope there is enough LNG being produced and exported for us to import and even then you have to compete with the LNG terminals in the UK, mainland Europe and Asia for those LNG ships. In reality there is almost no difference in an LNG ship landing in the UK, and pumping it too us via Moffat, versus landing directly here.

    If you really care about security of supply, then I'd suggest we spend this money on hydrogen production and storage facilities, so that we can produce our own energy and not be reliant on others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    What other country in the world is successfully using green hydrogen to provide electricity for when we have low wind output?

    Also you didn’t address the CNG storage tanks idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Green hydrogen is really in its infancy. China produces 1/4 of the world's total but it's far from green at present, 60% coal, 25% NG. Their main focus now is on transport and some industry and it may be a possible solution for aviation.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The Koreans are developing hydrogen fuel cell power plants, though some of them are using hydrogen as a waste from another process so not exactly what you would call green hydrogen. One example is the Hanwha plant. The petrochemical plant used to burn off the watse hydrogen from its process and now instead its funneled to the fuel cell plant which creates power instead of emissions from the burning.

    There are also other examples of other hydrogen fuel cell power plants there, the biggest in the world (currently) at 79MW at Kospo

    But which will be knocked off the top spot in 2024 by the 80MW plant at Hwaseong

    This is how I am hoping we see hydrogen used for power generation as opposed to burning of it which will just produce vast quantities of nox so we'd just be swapping one GHG for another



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