IRFU Transgender Women Policy Change

Subzero3 · 11-08-2022 3:18pm

Has any women's rugby players applauded this decision yet? I'd they are all happy behind it all but won't admit it incase they get cancelled.

Pudsy33 · 11-08-2022 3:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459323#Comment_119459323

Well two Irish players have come out against it and, to my knowledge, not one has come out in favour of it.

11-08-2022 3:38pm

Martina Navratilova comes to mind, she was quite strong in her opinion and faced quite a backlash from activists.

Neil3030 · 11-08-2022 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459252#Comment_119459252

But would that "enormous size and strength advantage" be any more than, say, your average lock, 30% or more larger than a scrum half? It strikes me that the logic motivating the "risk" of trans women players, if applied across the game, would render it unplayable in any context.

TomsOnTheRoof · 11-08-2022 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459417#Comment_119459417

Fair play to them but neither of those players would be liable were a player to sue over injuries sustained due to the action's of a trans athlete.

awec · 11-08-2022 3:52pm

It would take a very brave woman to come out in favour of this on Twitter, let's be brutally honest about this. I don't put much stock in this argument that we're only seeing people against it, therefore everyone is against it.

Twitter is, in general, terribly unrepresentative of wider sentiment on issues like this.

Podge_irl · 11-08-2022 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459438#Comment_119459438

The argument against this is that you have to compare percentile with percentile. An elite male lock may be 30% larger than an elite male scrum half but an elite male lock will be 60% larger than an elite female scrumhalf (numbers picked out of my ass to portray the point).

The difference can be larger than you would think also, at the same weight level for example it has been found that males have about a 150% advantage in punching power over females (i.e. in strength). Those numbers are not pulled out of my ass and it is the basis of the ruling here.

is_that_so · 11-08-2022 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459438#Comment_119459438

It's also to do with force they can apply to other smaller female players and the strength they may have to do so. The science suggests that there is a fairly sizable physical mismatch even with reduced testosterone so IRFU is very cautious in opting for safety. They won't be the last official body to do so.

Patrick2010 · 11-08-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459417#Comment_119459417

It would be a very brave woman to come out in favour of this given the cancel cuture, better to keep the head down.

Former Former Former · 11-08-2022 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459438#Comment_119459438

But that is how it has always been and it's an inherent part of the game, everyone knows that when they take the field, there will be big guys and little guys. It would be like John Hayes suing the IRFU for his cauliflower ears.

Trans women in sport is a new development and the world governing body says it shouldn't be allowed. So again, what defence would IRFU have in a lawsuit?

Subzero3 · 11-08-2022 4:11pm

Untill those biological women come out and show they are not afraid of the one sided agenda that the liberal media push this will continue. You might even need a trans to come out and say let biological women's sports alone. And perhaps start a gender neutral version without the need to ruin women's sports completely.

realhorrorshow · 11-08-2022 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459149#Comment_119459149

Regardless of the merits or demerits of the decision, it's very unfortunate that it has come at a time where trans people are under concerted and malicious attack from the far right.

I'm sure many commenters are coming from a place of reason rather than bigotry, but we all know that a large amount of those commenting on the issues, both online and elsewhere, are unabashed transphobes who couldn't care less about women's safety.

Neil3030 · 11-08-2022 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459524#Comment_119459524

So governing unions feel safe (in terms of legal risk) allowing a context for a 120kg male player to potentially badly injure a 75kg male player, on the basis of quantile alignment?

Faugheen · 11-08-2022 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459626#Comment_119459626

Exactly the conversation we were having in work today, or the fact that a 50kg trans man can play full contact men’s rugby.

The science works both ways, surely?

I find it hard to believe that they couldn’t have found something appropriate for the sake of two women, instead of just blanket banning them.

Neil3030 · 11-08-2022 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459572#Comment_119459572

Kinda my point, in a nutshell. The game is inherently risky. Is allowing trans women in female divisions making it substantially more risky? The evidence all seems to be based on general physiology, not actual injury incidence.

MrMusician18 · 11-08-2022 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459601#Comment_119459601

Whether they are unabashed transphobes though is completely irrelevant though when their argument stands up to scrutiny. Their argument is that trans women retain some physiological advantages over biological women and that is both unfair and and for contact sport, unsafe. There is no getting around that reality.

Awful people can indeed be right now and again.

realhorrorshow · 11-08-2022 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459670#Comment_119459670

I specifically didn't give an opinion as to whether they are correct or not. The point, and the post I was responding to, is about compassion.

Former Former Former · 11-08-2022 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459656#Comment_119459656

something appropriate for the sake of two women

I think we'd all like to have seen that, but one woman's compassionate solution is another woman's precedent.

TomsOnTheRoof · 11-08-2022 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459626#Comment_119459626

No, they feel safe due to the assumed risk undertaken by participants. Even then that only protects the Union from liability where there is no negligence on their behalf. Allowing trans athletes to compete against women could very well amount to negligence if the Union happened to be aware of research or studies which suggest that it's dangerous given the physical disparities between the two groups.

Former Former Former · 11-08-2022 4:36pm

I mean, transgender men can play men's rugby if they sign an acknowledgement of the risks to themselves.

If this was really about exclusion of minorities, wouldn't they be banned too?

Podge_irl · 11-08-2022 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459665#Comment_119459665

I think that's fair, it is absolutely based on general physiology. There is fairly limited data on transgender athletes (though what there is supports the argument I would say), but that's because they are a fairly small subset and there is no particular reason to believe the "general physiology" argument is wrong in their scenario.

I suppose my point could be boiled down to - there is an argument that the inclusiveness of allowing transgender women athletes to participate overrides the safety and fairness arguments, but the latter two so far as we can tell definitely exist and it is disingenuous to pretend they don't.

magicbastarder · 11-08-2022 4:40pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/kieranryanphoto/status/1557702642507325441

...

Sunny Disposition · 11-08-2022 4:42pm

How the hell can this be controversial? It's commonsense. Now, it is unfortunate that trans women can't be accommodated in women's rugby, but obviously they can't be. It's not transphobic to think that, it just means you acknowledge facts.

Capra · 11-08-2022 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458550#Comment_119458550

Wasnt that post going around WhatsApp last week that showed a balding "trans woman" who appeared to have all the characteristics of a man playing womens football an example of what many would call "blokes in dresses"? That person appeared to have undergone absolutely no gender transition surgery or hormone therapy and yet considered his/herself to be a woman? There is also no hint that this person was ready to transition as a teen or that they even felt that way back then. As far as I am aware the trans movement is fully open to the idea that many trans people are totally unaware of their trans status until middle age. Its well documented that many new trans identifying people never ever felt "trans" growing up.

A lot of the trans apologists seem to be under the illusion that a large percentage of people identifying as trans have gender dysphoria....this is simply not the case anymore. The modern trans movement does not require or expect people to have to undergo any sort of gender change therapy, drugs or surgery. You simply have to feel like a woman. It is entirely subjective.

Would you be happy for a seasoned male athlete like the aforementioned GAA player to come in and knock lumps off the local ladies social rugby team?

Capra · 11-08-2022 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459149#Comment_119459149

So all decisions must now take into account the individuals feelings? I remember I wasnt allowed to transfer between two local GAA clubs when I was younger even though I identified with the other parish much more. I felt very low and down.

My identity as a Limerick man was in tatters as I was being forced to play with a Cork team as my parents registed me at my GAA birth as a Cork player....it was devastating. I dont know how I ever got over it.

You'll just have to learn to accept that some people do not feel people born as men can ever be women. I find your claim that "two women have been told they cant play sport" absurd and beyond the realms of parody. The fact you cant even define what a woman is or is not proves the absurdity of your argument. For "Womens Rugby" to exist there must be a definition of a woman. The IRFU have made a decision and they should be praised for that. People like you want to live in this realm of post modernism where nothing is ever real or definable. Thats not a rational or productive way to run an organisation.

sprucemoose · 11-08-2022 5:35pm

the irfu were most likely on a hiding to nothing tbh no matter what they did. i dunno is it the right decision but i can see why its come down to this given that injury cases are now coming before the courts. theyve stated that this is based on current available science so what other ways could they go really?

Faugheen · 11-08-2022 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459945#Comment_119459945

Well done on completely missing the point of my post.

I said those celebrating should be a bit more compassionate because two women can't play at all, whereas you're blathering on about how you got to play GAA but in a different county.

As for 'some people do not feel people born as men can ever be women'. That's not what this decision is about at all, but it completely shows up your attitude to it.

I also never said they couldn't play sport. I said they couldn't play "A SPORT" which claims to be inclusive to all.

Jesus, did you even read the post properly at all or did you just cherry-pick whatever you wanted to make it sound like it was completely unreasonable for me to ask people to be a bit sound towards two women who have been told they can't play this sport instead of celebrating and gloating. Larbre's posts are more along the realms of what I'm talking about. He agrees with the decision but can see that it's a pretty sh*t day for two women. It really isn't that difficult at all to understand.

Clearly you can't show that same compassion. That's fine. However, it says a hell of a lot more about you than it does about me.

M three · 11-08-2022 5:47pm

Its the right and correct call by the IRFU and they are to be commended for it.

Btw whats the lower age limit for girls to play senior rugby, 17? 18?

Now imagine someone the size of andrew porter, 18 stone and 6 foot tall. Under the old regulations there was nothing to stop him, a man, identifying as a woman and playing for a ladies rugby team. And totally flattening all and sundry on the rugby pitch.

The IRFU are rightly and correctly closing that loophole and the subsequent serious injuries and insurance claims that would have ensued.

Faugheen · 11-08-2022 5:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119460057#Comment_119460057

But yet they're leaving open a loophole that could have a 19-year-old transgender man who is very slight, weighing 50-odd kgs and allowed to play with men.

Is that man's safety not important too? Or is this only an issue when it comes to women?

You can use all of the extremes you want. Men the size of Andrew Porter are already coming up against other men much smaller than he is. When we see all the head knocks the players are getting, why aren't we talking about the sheer size of some men compared to others and the danger that represents?

is_that_so · 11-08-2022 5:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119460083#Comment_119460083

This is the IRFU take on that "slight" man. Risk assessment might suggest a different sport.

In the male category, players whose sex is recorded at birth as female may continue to play if they provide written consent and undergo a risk assessment.

IRFU Transgender Women Policy Change

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