IRFU Transgender Women Policy Change

11-08-2022 11:53pm

I agree with the policy but I think it will be very difficult to enforce in Ireland because of the Gender Recognition Act. The GRA allows you to get a new birth cert with the sex you chose. The IRFU policy states that "Players are permitted to play in this category if the player’s sex recorded at birth is female, irrespective of their gender identity.", how on earth are they going to enforce that without singling out specific people and making them prove they're female? A person who was born male can get a new birth cert that states they were actually born female and the law states that you have to treat them as such. The IRFU needed a different policy to World Rugby because of the way the GRA is written, I think they will have a lawsuit on their hands.

At the time the GRA was being debated and people even mentioned sports, you had TD's acting like it was the most bizarre thing ever to even care about whether or not it would be fair, they knew this was a concern and were incredulous about it even being mentioned, it was in the draft heads of the original bill that participation could be restricted but was taken out because TD's thought it was bizarre to even contemplate.

"Head 26: Sport Head 26 enables a body responsible for regulating participation in competitive gender-effected sporting events to prohibit or restrict the participation in such events of a person whose acquired gender has been recognised under the Act and who is seeking to compete in the acquired gender. The prohibition or restriction can be effected if it is deemed necessary to secure fair competition or the safety of other competitors."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVRdu9CBQg&ab_channel=ClontarfMediaDublin

CatFromHue · 11-08-2022 11:57pm

Were women have been polled on transwomen in women's sport they been against it. These polls have been anonymous, for obvious reasons.

The World Rugby survey is below

17.-Transgender-Group-2020-Player-Survey-Results.pdf (world.rugby)

Markus Antonius · 12-08-2022 12:20am

I for one think that all players in women's sport should be transgender. That way they could attain the athletic levels that are achieved in the men's game, even compete against men and thus contribute to ticket sales that is, at long last, proportionate to the reimbursements/salaries they recieve.

12-08-2022 12:23am

Looking forward to this thread being closed @awec

Didn't mean to tag you but I can't delete it for some reason

Faugheen · 12-08-2022 12:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461230#Comment_119461230

No no, you don't get to tell me I don't understand the safety element at all when I absolutely do. Don't come at me with bad-faith bollocks like that.

I made the point that there are a small number of men who are playing every week around the country and are doing so in a way that is intentionally reckless and dangerous. Anyone who has played rugby at any adult level knows exactly the type of player I'm talking about and they've all either played with or against someone like that.

These men are allowed to play every week, despite the fact they going out of their way to play dangerously. Tell me why they're allowed to play and these two women aren't? What are they doing so differently that is less dangerous than the threat these women serve?

I understand the safety element, but it's completely hypocritical when there are dangerous bastards playing the game every week and they're going out of their way to do so. It's completely hypocritical to ban these women who haven't even done anything to anyone, and allow clowns above infiltrate the game.

Safety works in all ways, not in ways the IRFU wants it to.

Faugheen · 12-08-2022 12:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461485#Comment_119461485

Ah so you are anti-trans, transphobic and everything else that comes with it.

And before any other of the bleeding hearts start, not accepting 'this nonsense' is transphobic.

Didn't take long for the mask to slip that you actually cared about women's sport. Bet you haven't spent a second involved in it.

Markus Antonius · 12-08-2022 12:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461555#Comment_119461555

Why are women now called "Cisgender women". I think I would have opted out of the poll at that point.

CatFromHue · 12-08-2022 12:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461634#Comment_119461634

I've played at adult level and I'm not sure what you mean by these men. Do you mean dirty players?

Also, not related to your post, why does the female category exist in sport?

Roxxers · 12-08-2022 1:53am

load of woke junk we are killing our planet and people are more caught in this woke tripe , wake up

Jeju · 12-08-2022 2:24am

So we should be content to allow a circumstance where a 6'5 19 stone male born winger running at 25kmph crashes into a 9 or 10 stone female back in the fairness of aome sort of self entitled equality. It would be worse than getting hit by someone on an electric scooter.

zidac · 12-08-2022 7:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455034#Comment_119455034

The decision was not made in Ireland and would never be we just fallowing. At least world rugby had the balls to make the decision.

aloooof · 12-08-2022 7:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461634#Comment_119461634

Loathe to get into another argument with you, Faugheen, but here goes…

I think part of the reason for the ruling is that, down to the physiology, the players in question could be playing completely legally and it still could be dangerous for the opposition; they wouldn’t necessarily need to be playing recklessly.

(And no one is going to argue that a reckless player shouldn’t get ban for reckless play. It’s not mutually exclusive).

It’s a complex issue, where you have conflicting rights; the rights of trans woman to identify and play into a group vs the rights to safety and fairness.

I’d like to read more about it, but it seems to me there’s no perfect solution, and I can see why the IRFU erred on the side of safety.

awec · 12-08-2022 7:43am

@M three , @Capra , @Marcus Antonius , @Roxxers do not post in this thread again.

sydthebeat · 12-08-2022 7:56am

The right to safety and fairness for the majority should always trump the right to inclusivity for the minority, in cases where these rights directly clash.

There's no winners in this, but it's necessary.

In NZ rugby they segregate the larger kids from the smaller ones at underage levels, specifically because Polynesian kids develop much quicker and generally bigger than Caucasian kids. They do this in the name of safety and fairness.

Insurance rules the world these days and you can be quite sure this decision at world Rugby level was based on exposure to liability. World Rugby have a duty to the game not too expose it to possible liability.

boetstark · 12-08-2022 9:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461634#Comment_119461634

Because these players that we all know are acting the assholes against guys who are of the same biological make up.

I worked in a bank and an American guy , now a woman used to frequent the branch. He was about 6 five and bult like a tank. A work colleague of mine played rugby no 10 for munster and Irish sevens. She was about 5 foot 2 and about 52kg.

How in the name of God is it acceptable to have that guy / girl playing against women.

This is precisely why nz operate weight grade rather than age grade in underage rugby. Safety for the smaller player.

CatFromHue · 12-08-2022 9:18am

The right to fairness is being overlooked here imo.

I'm sure everyone's played at some stage against a team who had a player who shouldn't be playing for them. That player mightnt scored 10 tries but they did make a difference.

The transition process doesn't remove the male advantage so while it's not an easy decision it is the right one.

Annasopra · 12-08-2022 9:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456369#Comment_119456369

So basically it's not discriminating against trans men but is discriminating against trans women.

Annasopra · 12-08-2022 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459706#Comment_119459706

Isnt that the point in a way though. These two women are a precedent and nobody can point to any injuries/safety incidents posed by these two women.

Annasopra · 12-08-2022 9:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459718#Comment_119459718

Right so it IS about excluding transwomen then

irelandrover · 12-08-2022 9:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119462198#Comment_119462198

Well yes, but not because someone doesnt like them.

Its about the risks, allowing transgender men to play does not pose a risk to all other players. The men themselves can make an informed decision on the risks to themselves and decide to play. If you allow transgender women then the risk is to the other players. All other players cannot make an informed decision to play.

Podge_irl · 12-08-2022 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461634#Comment_119461634

I understand the safety element, but it's completely hypocritical when there are dangerous bastards playing the game every week and they're going out of their way to do so. It's completely hypocritical to ban these women who haven't even done anything to anyone, and allow clowns above infiltrate the game.

There are disciplinary protocols for dealing with dangerous play though. They are obviously not 100% effective (or even close to it at a lower level) but I don't really see where the hypocrisy is supposedly coming from.

You could certainly argue that this simply wasn't an issue that should have been in any way prioritised, and given the numbers involved it doesn't seem that much of an issue at least yet. But I suspect their hand was somewhat forced on that front.

Teferi · 12-08-2022 10:18am

Obviously nobody is going to change their minds on this, but for those supporting this outright ban instead of the more sensible case-by-case basis, I'd look at the type of person who's cheering on this ban alongside you and ask myself if they are credible people and if they make good bedfellows.

irelandrover · 12-08-2022 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119462410#Comment_119462410

How would a case by case actually work? There has to be some guidelines, otherwise there would definitely be discrimination cases brought to court. And if you agree that there are guidelines then you are really just arguing where the line in the sand is drawn. Athletics had a line in the sand policy but that is now under review.

There isn't an easy answer here. I don't want to see people banned but on the other hand you clearly need some rules on this. And no matter where you put those you are going to disciminate against some people.

Podge_irl · 12-08-2022 10:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119462410#Comment_119462410

They make **** bedfellows, but you can't control other people and its not generally a good way of deciding an argument. Also, let us not pretend this is in any way a fringe view - restricting transwomen in women's sports is generally quite well supported (easily a majority in most cases).

Case-by-case has many of its own issues. On what parameters do you base it, how frequently do you test it, what happens if someone "becomes" too strong from training? Forced to dial it back a bit to hit certain markers? Its also, bizarrely, much more open to individual discrimination action.

CatFromHue · 12-08-2022 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119462410#Comment_119462410

Yeah that's a nonsense point.

On the case by case rule what were the guiding rules for it? I can't seem to find any details on it.

Just beware the previous rules were for a kevel of 5nmol/l of testosterone for a year. That's still twice the level of a biological female and there's never been anything to back up why people think this would equalise the performance stats. It was literally a guess.

AckwelFoley · 12-08-2022 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119462142#Comment_119462142

I can't play u12 girls rugby becaise I'm a 45 year old man and would have a distinct advantage over 12 year old girls.

This rule bans trans women that have went through puberty as a male prior to transition because of the scientifically proven advantage they have over other athletes. That's not discrimination just because you don't like it.

CatFromHue · 12-08-2022 11:52am

The reality is that the old rules discriminated against women.

That's not transphobic nor is it bigotry.

It was just a guess that a reduction in testosterone for a year which was still twice the female level, used to be 4 times, would equalise the difference. It also has to be said that there was enough information available before this re was brought in that this guess wasn't a very good one.

Teferi · 12-08-2022 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119462641#Comment_119462641

What is a nonsense point?

gormdubhgorm · 12-08-2022 12:19pm

I listened to a few spokes-people from the various transgender advocacy groups etc.

The impression I got they were not sincere in their opposition to the IRFU ruling.

To me it seemed that they are just saying what their advocacy groups would expect them to say.

As I believe if they showed any common sense reasoning on the issues at hand, it would mean a backlash from their own community.

So instead it is used as a broader clarion call by the groups as a whole where ‘human rights’ is mentioned.

This is done whether they sincerely believe it is a human rights issue or not IMO. No mention of fairness or safety concerns.

I noticed another poster said the transgender rugby issue should be decided on a ‘case by case’ basis. But where would the line be? Rugby is a hard contact sport it is not snooker, or even soccer.

Where would the line be on unfair competitive advantage v natural exceptional physical attributes of those of the same gender/age group?

If Rugby was decided on a ‘case by case basis’ it would open a can worms as it would set a precedent for all sports/all genders/all ages.

For example Ross Barkley Soccer player (in green) playing in an u13 soccer match

is_that_so · 12-08-2022 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461539#Comment_119461539

The GRA allows you to get a new birth cert with the sex you chose.

I doubt if it will apply. There will still be an at birth record the IRFU can refer to. They are looking at biology and safety, not personal choice.

IRFU Transgender Women Policy Change

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