Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

even taking that massive oversimplification as true, it doesnt refute my point

That was tongue in cheek to be honest. Using some made up award as yardstick for a metric of being world class is reaching though. Who voted for that?

Fair enough that’s a fairly knowledgeable panel alright. All of those awards are made up yes. Was O’Driscoll not world class because he never won WOPTY? Despite definitely deserving it on 2009.

he wasnt at all though. he was an outstanding goalkicker and defender, he was playing superb stuff in 2002 when he was the best 10 in the world, but he was even more limited than someone like o gara. being metronomic with the boot disguised the fact his attacking game was limited. he did have a bit of a resurgence towards the end but having matt giteau outside him took alot of the burden away

will greenwood, stuart barnes, JB ellisalde, chris masoe, dylan hartley would all disagree with that

i meant your statement but yes i worded it wrongly. they (among others) called o gara world class, greenwood and barnes a number of times on sky for one

I think Bennett was the top dog. Unbelievable player. Carter was the best of his generation and Wilkinson was outstanding. ROG was very vertical good, but not at that level.

Wilkinson also missed four drop goals in that final, 3 of which when there was ample space elsewhere and when it wasn't the right option (much as it's still a good option if it goes over). The drop goal was fantastic absolutely, but he was average in that final, larkham outplayed him in attack largely

I've already stated a number of non Irish players/pundits/etc who call o gara world class. Don't agree if you don't want to, but it doesnt change the fact they did. Or the fact that o gara won the award for most influential player of the first 15 years of the Heineken cup. That's not to be sniffed at. And yes Wilkinson won ERC player of the year in 2013, but in fairness it's easy to look good when you have basically every good player in the world paid handsomely to play outside you

Early on in his career he had a good attacking game (2002 v Ireland in particular) but post 2003 he wasn't that great. He got rave reviews against Scotland in 2007 even though he was just fine and Andy Farrell actually did alot more in attack than he did.

Yeah I've said he was an excellent defender on multiple occasions

Theres no bias, just an understanding of the talent the player had. Lacking in alot of people on here it seems

2006 - 2009 o gara was the second best 10 in the world behind carter though

Again, see above. Second behind carter for a number of years

The problem with even just saying top 2 or 3 in the world is say there’s no particular standout at 9 in the world then by that metric someone like JGP becomes world class. Really it’s a meaningless enough phrase and generally used as part of statement whilst gushing over a player. Then people complicate by using other words like international, European cup or URC level. It’s all far too subjective to really be worth arguing over.

On the current nonsense ROG is easily enough the second best 10 of the pro era, beyond that it’s difficult to make comparisons with amateurs from other eras.

Take the green tinted glasses off. BOD wasn't the unlucky one 2009. Fourie du Preez was.

Yes, John Hayes. 107 caps for Ireland and the Lions over ten seasons. Two Heineken Cups. One Grand Slam. He was key to Ireland’s renaissance after a miserable 1990’s. Furlong is a better player (and I should have mentioned him) but Hayes really was excellent. Quietly very effective.

I think top five is relevant as players comes and go in a period particularly with England, France, Australia etc where you can have a player who has one or two big seasons and is then off the scene (whether through injury or a new player on the scene).

Ferris and Sean O’Brien would have been up there except they had seasons lost to injury.

I don’t disagree. In my original post What I was trying to say was that only Sexton, BOD and POC were truly world class in the modern era.

Sean O’Brien was certainly world class (between injury layoffs)