IRFU Transgender Women Policy Change

is_that_so · 13-08-2022 7:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466852#Comment_119466852

It's a public forum, not a private spot for you and your digital mates to exclusively sound off! The current topic extends far beyond rugby anyway and that concerns people. I see you're barely a wet week here yourself!

Quantum Erasure · 13-08-2022 7:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466852#Comment_119466852

Do you have the same attitude to those who'd only be here for the 6 Nations, and wouldn't have a clue otherwise...

Itxa · 13-08-2022 7:59am

Yes it’s a public forum. Nowhere did I say they weren’t welcome. What I did say is that they are not regulars here and that casts question marks over their motives. Is it just a coincidence these people are here or is it something more coordinated?

Annasopra · 13-08-2022 8:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466000#Comment_119466000

You are perfectly welcome to your opinion is that misgendering does not exist. It does though.

A trans woman in this thread earlier was referred to as he. She was deliberately misgendered with male pronouns because She does not identify as a He.

Whether you like it or not it exists and it has even been determined that sitewide rules apply on it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/110864714/#Comment_110864714

Quantum Erasure · 13-08-2022 8:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466893#Comment_119466893

I'd say it's from noticing the thread title trending on the front page of the site, it's hardly being orchestrated in private groups here or elsewhere....

13-08-2022 8:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466886#Comment_119466886

There's even a name for those that only come in for the Six nations and its definitely a derogatory term

Itxa · 13-08-2022 8:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466909#Comment_119466909

Yes you’re all just concerned private citizens

Quantum Erasure · 13-08-2022 8:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466924#Comment_119466924

You see a topic trending that you take an interest in, you post in it, pretty simple. Plenty of forums that I'd hardly ever go near, but might see something that catches my eye once in a while

13-08-2022 8:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466000#Comment_119466000

One thing stuck out to me here; what makes you think "false appropriation of a biological status which they are not" only worsens their mental health over time?

I'm not trans nor have I ever spoken to one in person but my understanding is the exact opposite of what you are saying here is true. They just want to be accepted as the gender they believe they are. Being "mis-gendered" would lead to worsened mental health over time.

One of us has this backwards.

aloooof · 13-08-2022 8:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466893#Comment_119466893

You’re here since (apparently) April? That’s hardly a storied history of posting here.

In any case, it’s entirely possible to make a reasonable argument completely independent of this. Would it not be better to engage with that argument, rather than trying to undermine it by attacking a lack of posting history?

If you feel so strongly about it, it should be easy make a counter-argument.

aloooof · 13-08-2022 8:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466941#Comment_119466941

Ya, agreed. @Larbre34 your comment of:

False appropriation of a biological status which they are not, is bogus and an act of delusion and denial which I believe only worsens mental health over time

You may believe this, but is there any actual science or data to back this up? Genuine question.

Itxa · 13-08-2022 8:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466977#Comment_119466977

I haven’t made an argument. I just highlighted that there are people on here who don’t usually come here to post. And i haven’t said the number of posts counts, it’s the fact that they don’t regularly frequent this forum and are probably not rugby fans. That is all I have said!

aloooof · 13-08-2022 8:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467005#Comment_119467005

I haven’t made an argument.

Exactly my point.

Former Former Former · 13-08-2022 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466941#Comment_119466941

I suppose the theory could be that, no matter how good people's intentions are, there will always be some level of distinction (NB, distinction, not discrimination) between women and trans women, even if it's for purely functional and mundane things like ensuring safety on a rugby pitch.

However, if a trans person defines their goals in life as nothing short of 100% identical treatment in every aspect of life, then they're going to be continually disappointed, so then the question becomes how much does that impinge on your mental health?

EDIT: this is my own musing, please don't ask me to produce scientific papers or some sh1t.

cuttingtimber22 · 13-08-2022 9:08am

IRFU deserve credit. Clarification was needed and now they have clarified.

chopperbyrne · 13-08-2022 9:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466011#Comment_119466011

I'm not a rugby fan, or in any way a regular poster on this forum.

I am however a father to a young daughter who is an active participant in sport, and I have a great interest in keeping it as fair and safe as possible for her.

CatFromHue · 13-08-2022 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466011#Comment_119466011

"People on here with long thought out arguments and counter arguments demonstrates the desperation of those posters."

lol what?

People who have paid attention to this and thought about it are desperate now?

The science is massively one sided on this and we're already seeing the outcome of this. Transwomen are over represented at the highest level of female sport because of the physical advantages they have over biological females.

Dave_The_Sheep · 13-08-2022 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466977#Comment_119466977

I'm here since the mid 2000s and have posted regularly on the forum since then. I haven't proffered an opinion on the matter because I don't know enough about the topic to do so, nor do I have any massive interest in women's rugby so I feel it'd be a bit much to stick my oar in at this juncture given I haven't really done so before now.

I also feel that the influx of new posters on this topic who have never before been seen around the rugby forum and the women's rugby thread is not a good look, given that they didn't care before but apparently do now? What changed?

There are users on this thread who have been here a long time and clearly care about rugby and that's absolutely fine. The same cannot be said for those that only get stuck in once the issue of trans players comes up. They only care about the trans aspect.

13-08-2022 2:42pm

The trans debate has become weaponised by political parties who don't care about the issue but know it plays well with their supporters when they take a hard line.

You've had all the Tory leadership candidates present as strongly anti trans, and their core membership are outlandishly anti trans (much more so than the UK generally). Their core membership are also the worst generation of voters in the UK in my lifetime and have hugely undermined the country by promoting an ignorant and incapable party of government.

Not everyone who is sceptical of trans issues or trans rights are bad people, far from it, but a huge amount of the arseholes of this world are and it creates suspicion in threads like this. I also think if you are pro trans rights there needs to be a bit more open-mindedness. A lot of gender issues are total mysteries to people and I think it makes it harder to empathise.

I think the RFU ruling is a hammer where a scalpel was required. In an age where people will look to alter their development to make it easier to live as their chosen gender post puberty it becomes more problematic. The idea of puberty blockers sounds dangerous to me - but then when I read how disproportionate trans suicide is amongst trans youth (86% of u18 transgender people have considered suicide) it gives me pause about the place where my opinion starts and where an open mindedness to facts might bring it.

Ultimately I'm a follow the science person. That goes for safety and fairness of women's sports, but also respecting the research and recommendations of psychiatry and psychology when it comes to the trans debate.

Former Former Former · 13-08-2022 4:55pm

There's an opinion piece in today's Irish Times by an LGBTQ advocate, Derek Byrne, criticising the IRFU decision.

That's not unexpected I guess, but he says that men being stronger than women is a "belief" and a "construct". It struck me that muddying black and white facts as unproven theory is exactly what right- wing republicans in the US do.

Further down, he compares the current situation for transgender people to the stigma around gay men during the 80s AIDS epidemic. Come on.

This decision made Thursday a "bad day for humanity".

I know he's only doing his job but this sort of OTT nonsense does the LGBTQ community far more harm than good. Attacking an organisation that has been very vocal and active about inclusivity is short term gain for long term loss.

It's sort of funny that his piece is directly below an opinion from Breda O'Brien on transgender issues (which is predictable in its content) but both articles suffer from the exact same flaws.

CatFromHue · 13-08-2022 5:36pm

That's not surprising and I do wonder do some of these people understand basic biology or statistics? It's very easy to wrap this up as transphobic or an attack on the trans community and, without going too off topic, this is the way any valid questioning has been shut down.

Take what Dil Wickremasinghe tweeted about the decision

Dil Wickremasinghe on Twitter: "The @IrishRugby ban on trans women is deeply hurtful to trans people & the entire #LGBTQIA community. As a psychotherapist working with the community I’m already seeing how this is affecting the #mentalhealth of an already vulnerable group." / Twitter

Dil Wickremasinghe on Twitter: "While considering the @IrishRugby ban on trans women it struck me, why is sport still so fixated on having single gender teams and sports? Isn’t it time to consider mixing genders? If it worked with schools why not sports? This way all gender expressions would be welcome!" / Twitter

Where do you even start with that second tweet?

From what I can see there was no evidence that reducing the testosterone levels for a short period of time would be anywhere enough to equalise the performance between the sexes. If anything there was more information out there saying it wouldn't work. As time has gone on it's been shown to be nowhere near enough of a reduction for transwomen to compete. This has been shown in academic papers and also from the real world results of transwomen in sport.

It is a difficult decision and I'd imagine very difficult for the few athletes involved. The issue is the numbers of people transitioning is increasing year on year and also their ages are decreasing. So while it's only a small number of players affected at the moment it's safe to say that the number will be increasing.

CatFromHue · 13-08-2022 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119468043#Comment_119468043

Without going too off topic, it was weaponised a long time ago.

Check out what happened to Kathleen Stock.

RichieRich_89 · 13-08-2022 5:48pm

I'm not sure it's possible to make a sensible argument in favour of transwomen being allowed to compete with biological females, so the above argument is what's to be expected. They can only appeal to feelings and emotions - or say that there shouldn't be female only categories.

72sheep · 13-08-2022 7:30pm

The reporting on this IRFU safety story is just trolling the public. The challenge to the IRFU findings comes from T spokespeople whose explanations are impenetrable. 99.999% public are then branded hateful because they don't understand those "explanations". The conclusion reached is that the ignorant public needs more education by the T spokespeople. LOL.

Of course, mercifully the Govmt can afford the luxury of delivering so much care to benefit a 0.001% Oh hang on, housing...

Annasopra · 13-08-2022 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466941#Comment_119466941

Definitely. Telling people they are deluded and that you deliberately refuse to acknowledge their gender would badly negatively affect their mental health. Completely and utterly backwards.

Quantum Erasure · 13-08-2022 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469546#Comment_119469546

deliberately refuse to acknowledge their gender

That's not what was said, "biological status" (rather than gender status) was the key point of the post

Spanish Eyes · 13-08-2022 8:14pm

Trans is an "identity" issue not a scientific fact.

No one can change their sex, only their identity as being someone other than the sex they were born with.

The bubble is bursting on the TRAs. The way they treated people like JK Rowling was appalling, and she was not the only one. No debate they said. Then Stonewall barged in and took over to indoctrinate many a business place and indeed Government Departments, the NHS and schools with THEIR interpretation of the GRA which was grossly false. People were afraid to speak out lest they be demonised or arrested.

Anyhow, several challenges have been brought. A lady who worked as a barrister for a law firm in London (Garden Court Chambers) was fired because she had Gender Critical views. She took a case to the Employment Tribunal and won. That means that people are now free to base their beliefs on sex not gender/identity. Imagine that it was so terrifying to state scientific fact lest you be fired or worse. Very sinister.

Anyway with the closure of Tavistock, people are beginning to wake up to the tyranny of the TRAs.

I am of the firm belief that the LGB community should ditch the T immediately. No good will come of it, and being T is not a sexual orientation either, so I don't know how they wormed their way in there. Anyone is free to identify as whomever they wish. They are not entitled to change scientific facts and frighten the bejaysus out of anyone who questions them.

The IRFU made the correct decision based on scientific fact. I applaud them for that.

Annasopra · 13-08-2022 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469604#Comment_119469604

Yes. If you tell a trans woman "you are deluded you are not a woman you are a biological male and thats it" - That is deliberately refusing to acknowledge their gender.

Roxxers · 14-08-2022 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119468043#Comment_119468043

ah so sit on the fence zzz after reading that lord

Roxxers · 14-08-2022 12:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470060#Comment_119470060

page 3 lol are they still in the orc muck ?

lawred2 · 14-08-2022 12:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119462410#Comment_119462410

Sensible case by case basis?

I'd like to see how much thought you've put into how such a system would work?

14-08-2022 1:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119462410#Comment_119462410

It seems harsh but it's not unkind to acknowledge simply that male bodies are physically stronger than female bodies. That's it. It's not hatred - it's simply a fact that we are all aware of. Sports are played with the body, not gender. I don't get why fairness towards women is considered such a problematic position.

Annasopra · 14-08-2022 8:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470405#Comment_119470405

You'd have to ask the poster who defined a "normal" woman that way

is_that_so · 14-08-2022 8:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470060#Comment_119470060

Do people actually behave that way in RL? The online world can give us an inaccurate and often misleading prism into reality.

Ash.J.Williams · 14-08-2022 9:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459474#Comment_119459474

and that is the crux of the entire thing , litigation

sydthebeat · 14-08-2022 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119468612#Comment_119468612

sounds like the sam guy that was on newstalk the day before... calling the study "unproven conjecture and hypothesis"

When that's the level of argument from the trans rights lobby group, you know they cannot argue with the actual scientific study results

72sheep · 14-08-2022 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119471722#Comment_119471722

Also this week a T spokesperson's on the Pat Kenny show called for more "nuanced science" to be used in such studies. Pat, a self-professed disciple of the scientific method, did not see any need to ask what that even means and so acted as if we're all already supposed to know. Who would have thought Pat would be such a dab hand at all things Cash Machine?!

Cunw · 14-08-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454875#Comment_119454875

A decision with honour and merit about time someone stood up for sanity, logic and women

14-08-2022 2:53pm

Gender and sex aren't the same thing.

Annasopra · 14-08-2022 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470856#Comment_119470856

Well you'd have to ask the poster I was referring to. Given how much transphobia there is online and that the former CEO of TENI had to leave the country because of regular street harassment and death threats nothing would surprise me.

Plus of course transphobia effects others. Good point on that here

https://twitter.com/suzybie/status/1557359216494628865?t=bTujewkeo_WIgMEwBPmjWw&s=19

Shield · 14-08-2022 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470060#Comment_119470060

What other way is there of pointing out that biological males are biological males other than pointing out that biological males are biological males?

14-08-2022 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119472879#Comment_119472879

Exactly. That person and others unquestioningly following the ideology always emphasise that sex and gender is different, as if it's some sort of "own"... when actually they're agreeing with those who question gender identity ideology. Exactly - sex and gender ARE different - therefore there shouldn't be a problem with pointing out that biological sex can't be ignored when it comes to sport.

14-08-2022 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119472835#Comment_119472835

Anything short of breathing is viewed as transphobia at times though. It does not help when the term is misused with glee.

And I don't think that's the reason the former TENI CEO stepped down.

Annasopra · 14-08-2022 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119472931#Comment_119472931

She left the country because of death threats.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/being-a-trans-immigrant-in-ireland-has-been-a-challenge-tenis-eirenne-carroll-1268866

Danzy · 14-08-2022 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473607#Comment_119473607

Teni have lost a lot of people recently, a toxic working culture was mentioned.

Regardless of their beliefs or work, little groups like that can have power hungry control freaks bed in and run things and run them into the ground.

Annasopra · 14-08-2022 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473705#Comment_119473705

She very clearly stated she left the job because of the death threats and regular harassment.

14-08-2022 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473607#Comment_119473607

Well that's disgusting.

supermans ghost · 14-08-2022 11:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473751#Comment_119473751

A real man would have stuck it out, ffs a few death threats and he turns tail and runs, what kinda man is that?

Danzy · 15-08-2022 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473751#Comment_119473751

I know there was significant activist backlash against her but it is awful to see it escalating to such. No doubt there was as much again from outside the community.

Quantum Erasure · 15-08-2022 5:05am

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0814/1315716-transgender-rugby-players/

This is one of maybe seven players affected by the RFU's decision in England

She joined East London Vixens and her first full season was in 2018 when she won most improved player.

"I’ve been pushed backwards as often as I’ve put anyone else backwards. This says that for some reason, just because of my background and my history, that I am always going to be more physically capable than any woman out there, that is simply not true.

"I can’t play the game I love. It is that simple. I am 54 now and probably didn’t have all that much left in me. But I’m cut off from that thing now. And honestly, my Sundays are going to feel empty."

IRFU Transgender Women Policy Change

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