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Salman Rushdie attacked on stage

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    So ISIS religious views are as bad as the Unitarian Church on Stephen’s Green? Please expand on this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Surprised at all the bleeding hearts here who think that they support free speech like Rushdie...

    So long as it's not about LGBTQIS, transgengers, Jewish, blacks 👍️



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    As long as it is not about those groups you say, yet you consistently have a long history bitxhing about such groups.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Do you think commentary on these groups should not be allowed fall under free speech?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    It is free speech but just because you have free speech doesn't mean that others can't or won't call you out for your consistent bigotry and hate.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Strange comment. Are you definite that they're the same people?

    Usually those who have a problem with the groups you mentioned would also have a problem with Muslims. On the other side of the coin, look at all the people whatabouting instead of condemning the attack.

    Then there are those of us (probably the majority) who will condemn attempted murder of an innocent person, by anyone in the name of anything.

    And it's not like Rushdie even said anything bad about Muslims anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    It's depressing people trying to defend the indefensible. Just like hebdo.


    I like the old phrase. "Even if you're paranoid. Doesn't mean their not out to get your"

    In this case they were out to get him and have gotten to him. Fairly simple no defence can be brought and spouting phobia or whatever does not change that fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5


    Ok, let's test this to its logical limits and see if you are consistent.

    Do you support free speech for the Paedophile Information Exchange, NAMBLA, the SCUM manifesto group *, the Black Panthers and the Jewish Defense League? Should photos of child rape be legalised and shared freely on the net, as advocated by the two first groups I mentioned?





  • Registered Users Posts: 12,479 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    The ventilator has been removed and he is now able to talk. Good signs!

    All Eyes On Rafah



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,482 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Doesn't offend, just makes you look ignorant and bigoted, but so be it.

    For me, there's no such thing as a religion of peace anyway - but the difference is that I accept that what a leader says is just the words of one person. And I'd make it very clear I was attacking the leader who said it.

    Do you even know who said it? And if do, why don't you condemn him specifically?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭Cordell


    There is no need for name calling yet somehow this always happens when people criticise islam, and at this point I don't even care. Ignoring the fact that this religion was the root cause of countless attacks is what means to be ignorant but that's just my bigoted view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,482 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    If you re-read the post you'll notice I didn't call you anything. I very specifcically sued the phrase "it makes you look...." - and yes, using rash generalisations WILL make someone look bigoted and ignorant.

    Now, how about the point I raised: why don't you condemn the speaker personally? Oh, you suddenly don't care? How convenient. I guess that's the end of this little debate then.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,011 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Free speech does not mean you are also immune to the criticism of what you say.

    Anyone should be open to criticism on what they say. If you say something racist, people can take you to task on it. That did not impinge upon your right to say it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭jmreire


    The fatwa to kill Salman Rushdie came from Ayatollah Khomeini, but it could have come from many religious sources, Shia or Sunny. And they have the power of life or death over any person or group perceived as insulting the Prophet or Islam in general. It's all laid out in the Quran as dictated by Muhammad in the 6th century. Bit like Putin and the novichok poisonings or people falling out of high rise windows. In Rushdie's case, it was because he simply pointed out a passage in the Quran where Mohammad in his early days was trying to spread Islam, and it was the peace and love times ( he had no military to speak of back then, that would come later, as in the "Kill the unbelievers" version) and when a group approached him and asked would it be Ok to still worship the old God's, he said sure, no problem. But later on, after thinking on it, he realized that it was a big mistake ( he could hardly propose the one and only true God, and at the same time encourage the opposition) So he went back to them and claimed that it was Satan who had put these words in his mouth, and they should be disregarded. And Rushdie repeated these verses in his book, and earned the death fatwa. The point is that in this day and age 14 centuries later, that power still exists as part of a religious doctrine, that cannot be changed, and its the only Religion that still exercises it, as we are seeing with the Rushdie murder attempt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭jmreire


    ..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭Cordell


    So what are you trying to say, that this religion just happens to have some evil leaders and some evil followers but otherwise it's perfectly fine? Seriously? These leaders including the one who put out the fatwa are part of this religion, you can't separate them, this is how organized religion work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Who is stopping anyone from commenting on these groups you mention?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I think their real fear was that if they accept that their prophet was influenced by Satan once then it will cast doubt about everything he said and did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,553 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    What has photos of child rape got to do with free speech?? 🙄

    Nobody right now. But it is a worrying sign that new "Hate Crime" legislation has been brought in that can alter punishments of perpetrators based on their "opinions and views" that they held at the time of an attack, which should have no bearing at all if we truly had free speech.

    I'm not saying that there isn't revolting opinions held by people, but limiting their ability to say it will not stop them but merely force them underground where their views can fester.

    One worrying example here of 3 men convicted in the UK of "stirring up hatred".


    While their views are extreme, who is to say "hate speech" won't expand further and start suffocating people with more reasoned views?

    This is my point about this thread - people going on as if "Yes, I absolutely support free speech"

    -but what about speech about LGBT, blacks, Jews?

    -"Well there should be some limits to free speech"

    😐️



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭jmreire


    In all fairness now, calling for the death of anyone for any reason, has no place in any civilized society, and in that sense, there can be no absolute freedoms. I see where you are coming from though, if these laws could be extended at the whim of individuals, like Putin is doing in Russia. That's a slippery slope, for sure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I dont think there should be limits on free speech from the government but in practical terms society limits free speech. Employers can sack employees, teachers are limited in what they say in the classroom, religous groups cna wish death on abortion doctors and authors can be threatened by religious nuts with death for blasphemy. Singapore limits free speech to ensure social cohesion while in America because of free speech news media can spread lies on any subject and claim it is just entertainment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Well there were other instances too where a statement in the Quran was contradicted by a later statement, on the same subject, but the explanation for this anomaly is that by virtue of it being the word of God, as given to Muhammad, then both statements even when they contradicted each other are still valid.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's no such thing as absolute free speech and there never was. It's freeDOM of speech.

    Freedom of speech doesn't include permission to harass people, like those idiots did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I think you will find that the 1st Amendment prohibits the Government from censoring free speech. However it does not mean that discussion forums cannot be moderated. And of course lawsuits by aggrieved parties can cause huge damages against extremism masquerading as "free speech", as in the recent case involving Alex Jones of Inforwars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Don't know that one. But does it matter, nope it doesn't imo. All built for the same purpose. As I said, I don't mind religious people, but funny thing is that all needs an institution to tell them how to believe and what to do and ......



  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5


    Worth a read.

    Extract:

    France is well used to such barbaric assaults on the freedom of expression, having experienced in recent years the slaughter of the staff of Charlie Hebdo, and the savage murder of Samuel Paty, the schoolteacher slain on a suburban street two years ago.

    In both cases the assailants were Islamic extremists, ‘avenging’ in their minds the Prophet, and the French political class understood immediately the motivation for Friday’s attempted murder of Rushdie. They were also prepared to name it, while taking care to make the distinction between the religion and the political ideology that drives the violence.

    Éric Ciotti of the centre-right Republicans spoke of his ‘immense emotion’ at the news of the attack on Rushdie, adding: ‘He is a symbol against Islamist barbarism, of the free world and of tolerance, as well as an immense writer’.

    His words were echoed by Valérie Pécresse, the Republicans’ candidate in April’s presidential election, as they were by Marine Le Pen, leader of the right-wing National Rally, who spoke of ‘Islamist hatred’ and said that Rushdie ‘inspires all those who want to defend their civilisation and humanism against obscurantism’. Aurore Bergé, parliamentary president of Emmanuel Macron’s Renaissance party, described the British novelist as a’ global symbol of resistance to Islamist totalitarianism’.

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    On the left Fabien Roussel, the leader of the Communist party, offered his thoughts to Rushdie and his family and condemned ‘Islamist hatred’, and Olivier Faure, First Secretary of the Socialist Party, declared that ‘radical Islamists who think they can silence freedom of thought and writing’ will never prevail.

    It is an oddity that British politicians have acted with bold resolve in their support of Ukraine against Russian aggression, yet they are institutionally spineless in confronting the barbarism of Islamic extremism, responsible for the deaths of more British citizens than Vladimir Putin.

    In the aftermath of the Islamist attack on London Bridge in the summer of 2017 that left seven dead, the then PM Theresa May declared that Britain needed to have ‘difficult and often embarrassing conversations’ about Islamism. These have not materialised. On the contrary, so terrified have British MPs become of being labelled ‘Islamophobic’ (a concept rejected by most French politicians) that a culture of denial now reigns in Westminster. Witness the reaction to the murder last October of David Amess, stabbed to death in his surgery by an Islamist. The House couldn’t bring themselves to utter the ‘I’ word, instead laying the blame on ‘toxic’ social media.

    Foreshadowing the risible reaction of the British political class, Charlie Hebdo published a sardonic editorial on Friday evening: ‘At the time of writing, we do not know the motive of the person who stabbed Salman Rushdie,’ it began. ‘Was he outraged by global warming, diminishing purchasing power or the ban on watering flower pots due to the heatwave?’

    The cynicism of Charlie Hebdo is understandable. They – and France – remember how quickly the Anglosphere’s sympathy in the aftermath of the Islamist attack on their staff seven years ago evaporated. Three months after the atrocity several English-speaking authors objected to the satirical magazine receiving a freedom of expression award from PEN, a stance that was excoriated by Rushdie.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/france-s-support-of-rushdie-puts-britain-to-shame



  • Registered Users Posts: 56,238 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    An evil scumbag to do that to the man. Hopefully locked up for decades!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    JK Rowling then threatened for expressing support to the man. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/aug/14/police-investigate-threat-jk-rowling-salman-rushdie

    And Twitter's response. Absolute scum of an organisation.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Exactly. Allowing extreme views is a price worth paying to maintain true free speech in my opinion. Otherwise we're just entering grey areas or hanging around slippery slopes as you say.



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