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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives


    I was relieved to hear that Tavistock is closing, it was horrifying to read that more than 30 children under the age of 10, had been referred there from Ireland. I don't want to offend anyone, but Jesus Christ, who in their right mind believes that it's OK for a child under the age of 10 to be encouraged in this? They are little kids with no clue about pretty much anything. There are so many horrifying cases of young people who transitioned who seriously regret it and say that they really didn't have any idea how it would impact them. So many have been mutilated and there's nothing that can be done about it.

    Even to suggest that there might have been some underlying mental health issues that should be explored before prescribing hormones or doing surgery was enough to get people absolutely ripped to shreds. The whole issue reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials. It's like a case of contagious hysteria where anyone who doesn't go along with the whole thing whole with enthusiasm is to be publicly shamed and harassed. I've no problem using whatever pronouns people prefer or politely going along with people who believe they are a different sex to the one they were born, well, I didn't until recently when it became a bad thing to refer to biological women and girls when referring to issues that affect biological women and girls in order to not offend anyone who was born female but doesn't think that they are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    Yes I do. Using quotation marks implies a quotation.

    Local lawmakers have complained that, despite the legislation being that trans girls cannot compete in events, the UHSAA don't require competitors to declare if they are transgender.

    In general, challenges only happen after an event. If the competitor hasn't won, then there is no point in objecting. In the US, there is an awful lot of competition for sports scholarships, and the difference between winning and second place is a reduction in the chance of obtaining a scholarship. That can be a difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars, so it is not surprising that (the parents of) losing competitors will look to make sure the event was fair.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It really does show a complete ignorance to claim children are "mutilated" - This is just completely untrue - Trans children were not getting surgery in Tavistock. The UK does not offer anyone under 18 surgery.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    No but they were pushing puberty blockers on children and coaching vulnerable children and teens how to ask for them ,and yes they prescribed them to vulnerable children.

    Poor management, oversight and poor to next to no record keeping .

    They damaged children



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives


    I didn't say that children were having surgery. I said that young people are being mutilated and they are. A 10 year old child should not be getting counselling encouraging them to consider themselves a different gender to the one they were born. Some believe that they will have a vagina post Op, they don't they have a bizarre shaped area where their penis was and I think that you know all of this. I'm not really interested in debating it. The fact that Tavistock is being closed and that services will be moved to regional centres where people can be much more closely monitored speaks volumes. Perhaps you should read the report, it's quite damning and indefensible.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Exactly, it's a non-issue. If a competitor in womens sports looks mannish and is beating their competition by a wide margin (wide margins are statistically unusual in high-level sports) then it's perfectly understandable that competitors or parents would ask these questions. Especially because there are dozens of actual cases lately of men entering womens competions - in swimming, weightlifting, cycling etc.

    The only people to blame are the sports bodies who allowed this trans nonsense for so long, and the trans athletes who took advantage. They created an enviroment where these concerns are well-founded. 20 years ago nobody worried that their daughter was competing against men in drag because nonsense like this did not happen 20 years ago. Now it does.

    Also the linked story offers no proof that the parents were wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Thats absolute and utter drivel then. There is no "mutilation"

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,725 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Sure what woman doesn’t love to have her identity called into question, let alone the suggestion that she’s actually a man? No big deal… except that it is, and it has been for quite some time now, and a case like this is just highlighting the many issues there are around sex testing in women’s sports -

    Subsequent reports have shown that the tests could cause psychological harm. Sex verification—identifying athletes whose hormone levels are abnormal compared to others of their purported sex — can cause sex identity crises, elicit demeaning reactions (publicly and privately), isolate athletes socially, and lead to depression and sometimes suicide.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

    In reality the tests do nothing to protect women in sports, and only subject them to all manner of horrific abuse and discrimination. The whole thing is nothing more than a distraction, while actual perverts like John McClean are protected within sports for as long as they are -

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40229339.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Encouraging girls , teenage girls to have mastectomies is mutilation ?

    especially when it's not done for any medical reason such as to prevent cancer or to remove the breast cancers



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The problem for me is that 40-50 years ago, psychology was mostly weird science. It was considered with suspicion, and yet, within the last 40-50 years its gone from being suspect to the go-to verification for all these experiments being performed on children. Even though, the research methodologies haven't improved significantly over that time, the moment anyone mentions that there's a psychological aspect, then it's perfectly fine to support these things. Doesn't matter that psychology is remarkably vague on these topics, or that American psychology is very prone to being influenced by external sources (politics/lobbies/etc), nope. These children need to be "fixed" because they have some ideas, which were likely put there by their parents, teachers, or some other authority figure interested in twisting children's development for their own purposes.

    These children were mutilated in terms of their identity and personality. The physical aspects are secondary as few of them were subjected to any operations which weren't completely reversible but the damage done to them in how they see themselves is enormous. Anyone who denies the indoctrination that must be involved in justifying these experimental procedures is incredibly dishonest, and biased to the hilt.

    And that's the problem really. The supporters of the Trans debate don't really care about the children/minors or even the adults who have negative experiences. They don't care that most Trans people suffer from severe personality issues, and thoughts of suicide. Nope. And then, there's all the side-effects and damage done by people who underwent the experimental procedures, with little practical knowledge of how to counter these issues. All they care about is that their crusade is accepted and approved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Its lies claiming children are being mutilated. Nothing else.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭cheese sandwich


    Giving children hormone suppressants that impact on normal development post puberty is mutilation.

    In 20 or 30 years people will look back with utter horror at what is being done to vulnerable children in the name of ideology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭Enduro


    These are sex caetgories, not gender identity categories. Nobodiy's gender identity is being called into question. Wether you like it or not a growing number of sports governing bodies are moving to ensure this clear in their rules. That's the reality, no matter how much you may dislike it. The vast majority of people in general as well as participants in the sports seem to be fully suportive of this. This will be the main sports related change that TRAs will have achieved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,221 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    The minimum age for mastectomies as treatment for gender dysphoria is 16 in Scotland, and 17 in the rest of the uk. And over 50 under 18 year olds had been referred for this surgery as of 2021. This is mutilation of children


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-doctors-approved-breast-removal-for-51-trans-teenagers-qvkmz8r2c



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The long-term effects of puberty blockers are unknown. The short-term include a wide variety of side effects which inhibit physical development, in addition to the emotional aspects. Considering that this facility was aimed at encouraging Trans beliefs in patients, it's reasonably safe to assume they pushed patients to believe that such treatments would be of benefit to them, influencing them to believe that they should transition in the future. After all, if they were not to transition physically at a later stage, such puberty treatments would adversely affect their own development as their natural biological sex.

    "Earlier this year, an interim report by Dr Hillary Cass found staff at Tavistock felt “under pressure” to adopt an “unquestioning affirmative approach” to gender that was at odds with standard clinical assessment processes."

    That's the mutilation there. Encouraging children to take puberty blockers, knowing that it will interfere with their personal development. The scary part, for me, is that you're so gung-ho for all this, when the long-term effects are unknown. It hasn't been tested enough, and you're content to have minors partake before we know if it's safe for them to do so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭briangriffin


    The only study done by Tavistock in the decade plus it has being treating children for gender dysphoria was on children prescribed puberty blockers. Children as young as 10 or at tanner stage 2 have been prescribed puberty blockers. 98% of those prescribed puberty blockers in that study went on to have cross sex hormones at age 16 - the study does not disclose how many had double mastectomies or gender reassignment surgery. So its true they are not mutilating children they are just setting them on the path to mutilation later in life. This is undeniable. The law suits will testify to it



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its more the case of suspicions, and theories.... the evidence isn't really there. Yet. (your own articles throw out a lot of might's and could's)

    A lot like the long-term consequences of everything related to the Trans topic. The evidence isn't there because previously the numbers involved were so tiny to prevent any real knowledge from forming. We're also struggling with a lot of bias in research and the medical industry, which is blocking a lot of the negative reports on treatments.

    However, the point remains that posters like Anna are so supportive for Trans treatments (puberty blockers, hormonal treatments, skin grafts, etc) without knowing the long-term effects. The cause is all that matters.. the negative consequences aren't even allowed to register.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Actually on the whole surgeries idea and puberty blockers why is mainly girls being targeted for mastectomies at a fairly young age with little or zero mention of boys needing orchiectomies ,

    it seems quite lobsided to only target young women and girls for mastectomies and puberty blockers



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,725 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I meant their identity as a woman, there’s no way in hell I’m going to start using that “biological woman” or “females” nonsense. It’s like you said earlier though - sex testing in women’s sports is nothing new, but your reaction to it by simply saying so what, overlooked the multitude of issues that have historically been associated with the practice. This latest effort will simply serve to exclude more women and make them suffer, than it’s purported to be protecting, as has been evidenced by all previous efforts regarding sex testing in women’s sports.

    It doesn’t matter what the vast majority of anyone thinks or supports or doesn’t support or doesn’t like, the fact is that sex testing in women’s sports involves a number of human rights violations which is why athletes themselves and human rights groups will continue to challenge the rules and regulations in the sports in which they participate and compete in, same as they’ve done in every other domain. Sports are not exempt from human rights laws. It’s not even a question of what TRAs themselves have or haven’t achieved, the issues involved and the implications are far greater than any culture wars nonsense, especially in a global context where countries which have different laws regarding recognition of human rights and limited opportunities for athletes in those countries who see sports and international competitions as an opportunity to have a platform to highlight social and economic issues in their respective countries.


    https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/12/04/theyre-chasing-us-away-sport/human-rights-violations-sex-testing-elite-women



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,725 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Not generally speaking, no, though no doubt it’d be bound to throw up some interesting results if they were using sex testing in men’s sports to the degree it’s used in women’s sports. Those results would likely be kept well under the radar in order to maintain the image of men’s sports as being able to sort the men from the boys… and the girls!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Where did anyone say that they're OK with women being harassed if there's the belief that they're trans women? Oh yeah, nowhere. Obviously.

    How can "Sports should be sex segregated because male bodies have a physical advantage over female bodies, and this would be unfair on women or girls competing" mean the same thing as "I'm fine with absolute numbskulls attacking women whom they suspect of being trans women". This intellectual dishonesty has got to stop.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    You seem to be saying they don't need to for men's events. As there would be zero advantage. Why I asked if men were being tested. So If it's only happening in Female sports its for a reason. 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,725 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Where did anyone say that they're OK with women being harassed if there's the belief that they're trans women? Oh yeah, nowhere. Obviously.


    Nowhere, obviously, but some people are perfectly ok with women being harassed when according to their own belief, the person is a man.


    How can "Sports should be sex segregated because male bodies have a physical advantage over female bodies, and this would be unfair on women or girls competing" mean the same thing as "I'm fine with absolute numbskulls attacking women whom they suspect of being trans women". This intellectual dishonesty has got to stop.


    Easily, when the level of intellectual dishonesty being employed seeks to exclude the fact that the people in question are transgender, ie their gender identity does not correspond to their sex, and the individuals in question don’t conform to that person’s perceptions based upon their own beliefs regarding sex and gender. It’s for this very reason that it’s acceptable to accuse women of being men, and feel vindicated that their accusations and behaviour was justified if their beliefs are confirmed… and if their accusations are found to be without foundation, say nothing and pretend it never happened.

    Can never be too vigilant though, even though in the history of women’s sports there has never been a case where a man tried to compete in women’s sports, and those people who were found to be outside the range of criteria for what qualifies as a woman, there was never any intent to deceive anyone in any case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,523 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Except in this thread apparently. Denial and gaslighting doesn’t change that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,725 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    That’s a rather curious interpretation of my post you quoted where I argued against sex testing in women’s sports because of the issues involved, not least the fact that it involves numerous human rights violations.

    If I’m arguing against the idea in women’s sports on the basis that it involves violations of human rights, I’m hardly going to argue there’s a need for it in men’s sports. You asked me what I thought was a fairly straightforward question, and the justification offered for it in women’s sports is to detect whether a woman is actually a man.

    It’s nothing to do with advantages or disadvantages in men’s sports. The point I was making in suggesting that it would throw up some interesting results if it were used to the same degree in men’s sports, is that there would undoubtedly be a number of women detected, which, in order to maintain the image of men’s sports as separating the men from the boys, they’d be keeping those test results under wraps and making sure they weren’t leaked to the media. They appear to be very careless when it comes to protecting women from public humiliation all the same. It doesn’t take genius levels of intellect to figure out why that is - because they don’t want to acknowledge that human beings aren’t nearly so neat and tidy as conforms to their perceptions of what constitutes a woman, even though elite athletes aren’t like either men or women among the general population anywhere!

    They are exceptional already by virtue of the fact that they are elite athletes. It’s for this reason that only 11,000 athletes qualified for the Olympics from hundreds of thousands of athletes, and they achieved their aim of gender equality, in principle at least, though not in practice -


    https://www.sportanddev.org/en/article/news/why-most-gender-equal-olympics-were-far-equal



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    lol. So shrodringers athlete. Mens sport keeps women under wraps. Female sport outs none females. Sounds more like a CT. How are your human Rights Violated exactly. Is someone holding people down and randomly checking ? Or do they agree to compete ? What next checking for doping is Against your human rights I mean someone does look to check your giving the sample. 🤔

    Post edited by xxxxxxl on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    there would undoubtedly be a number of women detected, which, in order to maintain the image of men’s sports as separating the men from the boys, they’d be keeping those test results under wraps

    I'd doubt that. there might be some intersex individuals with XXY chromosomes, or some other anomaly, but I'd very much doubt there would be any XX women detected, who weren't known to be women in the first place.



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