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Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,223 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The horses on the land. Did they belong to Sophie?



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    No - Mu understanding is that she let locals use land for animals to graze on. There was no rent asked for, or taken.



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Boils down to the same thing....

    How could Bailey have committed the murder, and not left one strand of dna at the scene, nor contaminated any of his clothing, studio or family residence..

    The crime was bloody and messy.. He had been langers the night leading up to the night / morning of the murder..

    To not leave one dot of blood, hair, saliva, fibre or fluid at the scene, or at home, is just too much to believe...

    That's before we examine his mental state afterwards - Nothing stack up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Id go further, to say that Bailey murdered Sophie in the manner suggested by that poster, he would undoubtedly been covered in blood himself. There is no possible way even if did wash himself down at the bridge that there wouldnt have been some traces of blood either on him or his clothes. That would mean Jules would have known one way or the other. The gards believe she may have been too afraid to give evidence against Bailey but they're broken up now & still nothing from her where she continues to say she's 100% confident he didnt commit it. So not only did Bailey leave 0 DNA evidence at the scene, he also was able to completely clean himself & his clothes so well that no one would notice all the while being drunk & in a matter of hours. And if he did dispose of clothes, Im pretty sure Jules would have noticed them missing especially with the level of scrutiny/pressure they were under. Its just inconceivable Bailey was able to act like a criminal mastermind who got away with the perfect murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I've written a similar scenario like this often.

    Based on this, and given the amount of alcohol he had in him after a night out in the pub and the hiking through the rural charms of nocturnal Ireland he would have had to have done to get to Sophie's, it's highly unlikely but not impossible that Bailey did it.

    I think it would also all boil down to what options of cleaning himself up Bailey had at the studio, how thorough he could have been, etc... Also, he wasn't exactly sober, so doing all this and leaving no trace on him at all doesn't sound plausible at all.

    Since you mention Jules, suppose just for speculation's sake, she was in it as well. Suppose, Jules drove him to Sophie's, Bailey murdered her then and there, and Jules then drove him back, helped him clean up, dispose of the clothes and cleaned the car behind the studio?

    Of course we don't know what Jules motive could have been at all if she was in it as well, but also we don't know Bailey's motive.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    I was more impressed by her in the documentaries than anyone else tbh. She seemed to put her kids above anyone else, hence why she finished her relationship with Bailey as a result of all the attention around this case. She gave reasonable honest interviews imo, alot better than that clown Dwyer anyway. I believe she was telling the truth.

    I dont know if you've ever lived with a partner before especially for a long period of time but you'd know if they did something like this, highly likely they'd be alot more anxious, nervous, guilt ridden especially if it was a drunken murder. Shes 100% behind him even now & she'd have good reason to put him away considering the drama he inserted into her life.

    Jules interviews was what convinced me Bailey is about 85/90% innocent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    If you're talking about these horses in the photo earlier in the thread;

    The horses are on Alfie's land, the red line marks Sophie's western boundary. As far as I know Alfie did not own horses, so I would presume they are either Leo Bulgers or Finbarr Hellen's horses. Alfie and Finbarr Hellen had a Boundary dispute around that time.

    The shed between the two houses was owned by Alfie, the only access he had to that land and the shed was along the rear wall of Sophie's house.

    A few years later that shed and some of the land around it changed hands from Alfie to Sophie's son Phillipe.

    I've always suspected there was some encroachment on Sophie's and Alfie's land, which came to light when the properties changed hands in the early 90's.

    Sophie might have been trying to re-claim her property. She also shared commonage with Finbarr Hellen, and may not have understood what that entailed.

    Sophie had been trying to cultivate a garden by the western gable and the lawn to the front of her house and it looks like she had a new gate erected down by the pumphouse into her front lawn from the lane which may have caused friction.

    This gate is shown as wide open in the crime scene photos.


    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    The answer to the final question you pose there seems obvious to me.

    He regularly drank large quantities so he could "hold" it , as the expression goes. If he drank a large quantity on the evening of the 23rd it may not have decreased his physical capacity to kill somebody in the manner that Sophie was killed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Your explanation sounds very plausible to me and I'd say you're correct in your thoughts.

    That is unless Jules is an excellent actress, really able to do some acting, something not uncommon in the artistic field. However I don't think that's the case here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "How could Bailey have committed the murder and not left one strand of dna at the scene"

    Drop the word "Bailey" and insert "anyone". Lack of DNA does not exonerate Bailey.

    "nor contaminated any of his clothing, studio or family residence"

    Contaminated clothing.....the killers clothes must have had some blood on them. If Bailey is the killer he probably wouldn`t have returned to the home. So into the studio, clothes off and a quick wash. Maybe he had a change of clothes there, maybe he popped back up to the house in his jocks while everyone was still sleeping.

    Studio....given the remains found in the fire, there may have been some contamination in the studio that required the burning of the mattress and a bit of a clean with bleach.

    Family residence...I don`t think there would have been any evidence in the home.

    Bailey was a court reporter in Britain. He would have known better than most what was required to dispose of the evidence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    I listened back to the West Cork podcast.

    Partly because I was in the area last weekend and could now put a face on the places I had heard about before, the village of Schull, Kilfadda Bridge etc.

    I didn't bother going near the house even though I had plenty of opportunity to, that would have been just weird I thought.

    Anyway I'm as convinced as I was the first time that Bailey is just such a good suspect for the crime.

    The history of violence, the questions over whether he knew her or not, his arrival time at the scene and behavior at the scene, the admissions that he did it.

    No one else gets remotely close to being such a good suspect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,859 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Except Bailey is supposed to have done it, without pre-planning, in a drunken rage, and gotten scratched at the scene...

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I believe Jules too. I accept that she thinks Bailey didn`t do it. I wouldn`t see her as an accomplice. She lied for Bailey initially but she may have just done that because she genuinely thought he was innocent. But it is all belief mechanism not based on any fact. The only fact is that Jules has no idea where Bailey was for several hours on the night of the murder. She didn`t come downstairs and have a chat with him in the kitchen at 4 AM. She didn`t watch him stroll up from the studio at 5-30. She slept through the night.

    You might bump into a man in sackcloth carrying a placard that the declares the end of the world is nigh. He may convince you that he really believes it. You may even believe it. But the sun will still rise tomorrow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,804 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Pre-planning or not depends on when the rejection came. If the rejection happened on the Saturday afternoon, then he would have been stewing things over for a day and a half. The detour on the way home from the pub becomes quite sinister then and he clearly hadn`t Alfie in mind at all. It is hard to get away from the fact that shortly after midnight, a local violent headcase was mulling over going up that lane way and that during the following several hours when that individual was missing from his bed, a violent headcase did indeed go up that laneway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Cmon, have you ever lived with with a partner for years. You'd know even if there was a slight change in their behavior. So we're expected to believe that Bailey murdered STDP, didnt leave any DNA at the scene, didnt leave any traces of the murder on him despite being out of his mind drunk, then acted normal around his partner of years in the days & years after it. This being his first and only ever murder on top of everything else!!!! Jules doesnt strike me as someone who's gullible, she raised three daughters pretty much by herself.

    So by your post, you're also admitting the sight of Bailey & Jules burning clothes in the days after the murder is complete rubbish too. Another key element of the file that was sent to the DPP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Ah ok, so he had a big fire on their land where he burned all the clothes he used in committing the murder and Jules didnt know anything about that either. lol😂. Its funnier its getting



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I`d say the only person that might have got a look at what was burned on that fire was that other night owl Santa, although he was probably heading home tired at that stage and didn`t pay much attention. You don`t really think he put up smoke signals in the daylight do you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    When exploring Alfie and Shirley theories there are 5 possible scenarios.

    • Alfie did it and Shirley never knew.
    • Shirley did it and Alfie never knew.
    • Alfie did it and told Shirley immediately.
    • Shirley did it and told Alfie immediately.
    • They killed Sophie together.

    Could be expanded to 7 if the other found out some time after.

    Many theories have been offered on here involving A & S but it's not always clear which scenario is being referenced.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,859 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    To complete the picture on scenarios:

    * They (one or both) didn't do it but knew who did it (and were threatened into keeping quiet) or

    * They (one or both) are somehow implicated as an accessory themselves after the fact

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭TheW1zard




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Also ; They (one or both) didn't do it and didn't know who did it.

    They ( one or both) are not implicated other than discovering the body



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    ...and multiply this by the number of possible suspects and accomplices and you soon get into silly numbers of permutations.

    The big problem is that there doesn't appear to be the evidence to connect anyone to the crime. Lots of conjecture, supposition and hpotheses but little fact.

    If one starts with the facts, are there enough to lead anywhere with any degree of confidence?



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    No,

    The facts, at least those that are in the public domain, do not point directly at any one suspect.

    Hence the concentration on motive, means and opportunity. Motive is the key factor.

    Possible motives - money ( Daniel )

    Jealousy ( the ex lover who had previously assaulted her)

    Neighbour dispute ( Alfie, Shirley, the Hellens)

    Rejection of sexual advance ( any local male)


    Opportunity - Well, anyone who was in the area, I suppose


    Means - Again, anyone who could lift a block or simply overpower Sophie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    All good points. However come to think of the documentaries and Jules, I often had the feeling she started being evasive when the subject of scratches on Bailey's hands came up, or a scratch on his forehead? It may only be my perception, but I've felt that Jules was evasive there. She was his partner for a long time, she would have noticed anything, as you stated. Even more I am wondering why she apparently didn't pay attention to Bailey's scratches.

    But also, scratches Bailey had or may have had, don't prove anything at all, and as his DNA was never found at the crime scene, not on Sophie, not on the brambles and briars, he couldn't have gotten the scratches then and there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    There were two instances of violent assaults committed by Bailey on Jules - that we know of. It's likely there were more that we don't know about.

    Who says he was in a "drunken" state that night? Are there any witness statements regarding this? Did his state of inebriation render him legless? Did he lapse into a coma when he arrived home from the pub whatever time that was, prior to or after a possible detour to Sophie's?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I'd say, if Bailey was out in the pub the whole evening until closing time, I can't see him having less than 3 or 4 pints, plus whisky every now and then.

    Under these circumstances, I find it highly unlikely that he hiked over to Sophie's, killed here without any noise, and without leaving any incriminating evidence and hiked back, cleaning himself up, disposing of the clothes, and Jules not noticing anything at all. And if he arrived at Sophie's in the middle of the night smelling of beer and whisky it would certainly not have been a quiet encounter.

    It is possible that he did it, but in light of the circumstances rather unlikely. And again, there is no evidence linking him to the crime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    And if he arrived at Sophie's in the middle of the night smelling of beer and whisky it would certainly not have been a quiet encounter.

    But who would have heard him?

    A sleeping Alfie and Shirley over 100m away?

    Remember Shirley had to beep the car multiple times to get Alfie's attention when she discovered the body and he still didn't hear it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's possible they were hard of hearing. Some people of this age are and not admitting it.

    However I personally do hear noises at night, from more than 100 meters away, especially, if I was in the country. Dogs barking, or other animals, it's not uncommon.

    Also, how do you think a woman alone would have reacted if a man smelling of alcohol would have met her in the middle of the night?

    How would he have gotten her attention to the point she opened up the door? Did she have a bell to ring? Did he politely knock? Would Sophie heard that? Did he knock violently on the door? Or did he make some other noise outside of the house for Sophie to go out and investigate?

    If it wasn't a knock or a door bell, the killer must have done something to get Sophie's attention, and this something may to a certain degree have been some kind of noise? - only speculation from my part.

    Thus it's even more strange that Alfie and Shirley didn't hear anything, - not even the murder.



This discussion has been closed.
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