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1995 Divorce referendum 50.3 % voted Yes

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,568 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    If the referendum had been defeated how soon could we have had a re-run? I remember Mary Harney saying at the time "We can't be doing this every ten years." I'm pretty sure we'd have had to wait till the 2011-16 FG-Lab government at the earliest but would even that have been too soon? Maybe they could have Divorce Ref III on the 20th anniversary of Mark II, in tandem with Gay Marriage Ref...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Pissy Missy




  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives


    I remember the days in my youth of skipping mass on a Sunday, pretending to your Mother that you'd been and asking other kids who'd got dragged there what the sermon was about so my Mother who'd been to an earlier mass, believed I'd been. Funny enough, she hasn't been in a church for decades now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Pissy Missy


    You're a gas man..

    And your mother was a cylinder



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,658 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    The 90's wasn't as bleak as the 80's but we were still pretty conservative and churches would be full on Sunday morning for the 4 or 5 masses that would be on. Hard to just to switch off the indoctrination that parents, grandparents and even great grandparents would have went through in the previous decades.

    A lot of credit for turning Irelands fortunes around needs to go those governments of the early 90's, I think it started with a FF/Lab coalition led by Albert Reynolds and then the Rainbow Coalition led by John Bruton. They were the ones that made the changes that made Ireland an attractive place for companies to come and set up and then things took off. I think the golden years were between 95 and 2005, we had started to lose our heads about then. But it was great coming of age in the country when it seemed everyone was out socialising from Thursday to Sunday, you had a pick of bars and nightclubs to go to that didn't seem to cost an arm and a leg, there was a good buzz about Dublin as things were picking up, everyone was working, there didn't seem to be the problems we are seeing today with safety in the city. I know there were still dodgy areas but you would feel safe walking around the city, i'm not sure that is still the same now. We seem to have gone back a bit now with the poverty that we are seeing now.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    I suppose we all experienced some form of slagging going to school, but I think as far as young adults were concerned in Shannon they were pretty much ahead of time. I remember there was always a bigger lad who stood up for anyone being slagged off or picked on. Shannon was like an American suburb back then, even the houses we're slightly American looking. Look at Tullyglass hill and Tullyvaryagga and those house's on Drumgeely hill. You might as well have been in Hollywood or somewhere in LA. All the latest video tapes and cool stuff for teenagers was brought in through Shannon Airport. And people working in the airport had cheap flights so if you seen something cool on a movie, your Dad or mum just ask your friends parents and they'd bring it back for you. We were so ahead at the time we didn't know any better. Growing up was like living on the Goonies set or ET . Because we had American style suburbia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I'm of similar age to you. Born in the mid 80's (86) , grew up in the 90's and came of age around the turn of the century.

    From a country town in the GDA now (but wasnt really a thing then).

    There was no racism then, certainly not compared to now anyway. Gollywog icecreams and minstrels and that sort of stuff are only racist to people who have racist leanings anyway. Next thing you'll be telling me uncle ben or aunt jemima is racist too? I remember the first black guy in the town too. Nice chap. Had the kids of the town asking him questions about his race and appearance the whole time as in 80s-90's ireland we'd never seen a foreigner.

    The only problem I saw openly was anti-gay (specifically anti gay, not anti lesbian). Most families had an "eccentric" cousin or uncle etc who lived in the UK or Europe, because he was gay. And to be honest, that has changed a lot in the interim



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    They were teaching it to the people who'd listen to them or were teachable. Our family and friends didn't listen or go along with that bullshit. We didn't fall in with the status quo or fall for the latest thing. Even to the present day, we are all quiet savvy at at nonchalantly rejecting what the man in the suit tells us is right. We just pretty much mind our own business and if we get into a spot of bother it'll be sorted out or just get on with it. **** happens.

    My mum and dad encouraged us to be critical thinkers, and we never fell for the bullshit of keeping up appearances. Our social circle was similar.

    As for the Catholic church, they didn't hold as much sway with everyone. People had a choice. You either go along with the current thing or make up your own mind and reject it .



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You mention the coalition governments but praise their leaders.

    I, personally, would go with the common element there. Labour


    Even for all their issues in government, last time, the Marriage Equality referendum was Eamon Gilmore driven.

    Leo about faced when it was politically advantageous. Up to then he was against it.

    It is a pity that individual ambitions, for ministerial positions, allowed them to be confined to obscurity. It should be them, and not SF, challenging for government



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    Obviously where you were brought up was different and you're still holding onto resentments and feel guilt shamed about other people's lack luster for tolerance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,658 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    I wasn't praising those leaders I was praising those governments who just happened to be led by those leaders. Labour under Dick Spring was the driving force in those governments and I think it was Ruairí Quinn that brought in the lower Corporation tax rate that brought the tech companies here. You notice I didn't mention the FF/PD governments because I think they wasted the opportunity we had in those golden years to really give the country first class services and are the ones that have set the very low standards to which our current politicians are trying to lower even further.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,051 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    the 90's were our 60's that's how backward we were, imagine a church even being remotely relevant to laws ,we look at the middle east now but we were similar (without the deaths)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,658 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Oh I don't know there would be some that would dispute the "without the deaths" considering what was going in Mother and Baby homes and Magdalene laundries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,485 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    I see this sort of attitude on line a lot. Especially on Boards, The Journal and some You Tube videos and I don't get it.

    The country is a much better place then it was in the 90s and even 15 years ago.

    Most intelligent people have left behind the dogma of the church and this has led to more liberal laws on divorce, contraception, sexuality and marriage.

    Ireland was in a very bad place back then in relation to this.

    People are also wealthier, go on more holidays, drive better cars etc.

    The major issue now is housing and this has to be tackled as houses are unaffordable and if not tackled properly it will lead to emigration and economic decline.

    But to say that now there are no prospects here is just wrong as there lots of new companies here offering better and higher paid jobs that were available 30 years ago.

    People often romanticise the past, often as they were young then and in an exciting phase of their life rather than the possible mundanity of middle aged life but there is now way Ireland was better then.

    Also, the country has its problems but so does every where else, and having lived abroad for a number of years and come back i realise that Ireland is a great place to live with great people and I'm very happy living here.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Also the scrapping of 3rd level fees, which fed the science/tech boom a steady stream of graduates from areas with no college representation previously



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,905 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    Yea I always say we are a full 30 years behind the USA in 1960s they were having a social revolution which we had from 1995 onwards. But I’d also be wary of their problems like once great economic regions falling by the wayside like Detroit and Pittsburg. The same could happen here with intel , Pfizer etc. What’s to stop them going to Asia or an English speaking African country in 20 years? Kenya is baking massive strides. Things are becoming so divisive in Ireland . Are we on the brink of a farm crisis like USA in 1981? That was the beginning of the end for farm families , and big meat corporations took over family farms. It’s beginning here with green agenda. What you will have is Larry goodman owning huge regions of land and having full control of beef production , same with Kerry group and Glanbia with dairy. So we’re due an extreme right wing party in next 15 years and trump style politician to tap into those left behind if the big multinational companies start to pull out. Going back to a few fun things that Ireland has now that we’re non existent here but we’re common in USA . Big pick up trucks , suv and disposal coffee cups everywhere . In 1986 . Where could you get a coffee or tea in paper cup?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,051 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    well there's that! saw a pic of a wedding from the 60's and ladies hats really were a western way of covering up :) when you see every woman there wearing a hat like that it looks like a burqa



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Rose tinted glasses. Shall we ignore the fact that couples were still struggling to get contraceptives. Arrests still being made of gay people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,658 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    I think every teenager at that time did the same. I use to peek in the door see who was saying the mass and then head off.



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  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You had to wear a head scarf when entering a church until Vatican 2 from what I remember. Still seen older women who wore them out of habit in the 80s and 90s.



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives


    We had 1 particular priest that was Old School Fire and Brimstone. 12 O'clock mass on a Sunday was best aIvoided and he dragged the arse out of it for longer than any other mass. Later in life I discovered that Protestant churches have cushions on seats. I felt very cheated having had to sit on hard wooden church pews for years. Why does the Catholic church need people to have bottom ache during services? I don't think pain gets you closer to God.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,485 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Ok so you don't think the church had a grip on you because you rebelled by messing in the church. The fact you were in there is the first place should show you how the church had a grip as you were probably sent their by your parents.

    Also, egging the parocial house etc, Woudln't have happened if it wasn't seen as an place of authority.

    Seeing the odd rubber johnny or talking about isolated gay clubs does not mean it was a liberal country or in a good place. Why was the sauna incognito?

    To me you're only proving how oppressed and stifled the country was and it's in a much better place now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,639 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Some of the rose-tinted revisionism on here is just absurd. Can't even be taken seriously.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,652 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'm going to have trouble finding it, but i remember reading a fintan o'toole article years ago where he tackled the idea that ireland's economic fortunes improving, coincided with an upswing in the number of women working. i think it was backed up by some research that had just been published.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    Seriously it wasn't as bad as you think it was. Maybe if one's sensitive and always obedient to the current thing they'll go along with it but hate it at the same time. Going to mass to impress their peers.

    But most working people could afford a house or apartment back then. And a lot of us almost have our mortgages paid off and we're not even 50 how bad huh.

    So what's your idea of a liberal society, sometimes I think some of these liberals are getting more depraved in their liberalism, cutting off food supplies, trying to spread democracy where it's unwelcome, creating division and stress to people. I think conservatives are more liberal nowadays than the new wave of half baked fruit cake liberals.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I'd go back further than that to the 1980's. For me the last gasp of Catholic Ireland was the moving statues daftness in 85. There was a big demographic shift towards the young of Ireland and arsed they couldn't be for the most part. Church attendance was dropping fast by the late 80's. The family planning act of 85 meant you could get johnnies without prescription. That shift translated into the legal and mainstream shifts of the 1990's.

    Pope John Paul George Ringo showed up here in 79 and millions showed up to see him. I'd have bet the farm that if he'd shown up ten years later that number would be a fraction of that. The current guy showed up a few years ago and his gig in Croke park couldn't even make it to close to half full.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    The Gay guy or gal rellie who moved overseas was very much a thing alright.

    I would say that racism, or rather otherness is always in play, it just shifts from covert to overt and back again depending on the culture, politics and demographics and it's no respector of colour or creed. Ireland and the Irish back in the day were overtly racist or would be seen as such today with pretty open jokes on non Whites being common. Hell the old version of eeny meeny miny mo would be seen as more than a little problematic these days... That was down to ignorance mostly, though there was always the side order of ahh bless, the Little Black Babies and the Trocaire pennies they need too. An undercurrent of the European/imperial superiority involved. It was also down to demographics. Black people were very rare to see. So there was far more of the novelty effect in play. If there's one Black guy in the town it's "ah Jimmy, yeah sure isn't he only grand". If a thousand show up, light the blue touch paper and sit back. If racism is encouraged in the culture, or not actively discouraged it's overt in nature, if frowned upon it's covert. Ask any Black person in the UK, France etc.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Juran


    I grew up in the 70/80's, college early 90's. We were from a very rural area, 45 mins drive to nearest big town for banks, supermarket (old quinnsworth), etc. In my primary school of 100 pupils, most were piss poor, but every single family had their own house. Either granny's old house, a council house, or a new build bungalow (thanks to rural grants). I don't know one single family who rented a house, unheard off.

    Same school today, I,d say over half the families are in rental accomidation with little hope of owning their own house.

    So we were piss poor, but roof over our head, food on the table, hand me down clothes, old cars and no holidays away. We might say we were happy, the kids were, but I,d say the parents, in particular mothers and women were not happy. Ask you mother, aunt or granny.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    For better or for worse the introduction of divorce legislation did bring about a dramatic change in fortunes for modern Irish family life.

    I think it is worth pointing out that people who believe that divorce introduced some sort of a legal solution to domestic abuse are kind of reaching for some sort of idealistic reasoning behind the purpose or existence of divorce in modern family culture. Legal separation had been around for the previous 6 years and indeed there were other options available for dysfunctional marriages prior to that, not many, but there were nonetheless.

    I think what the referendum did indicate, and quite possibly initiate, was a movement by Irish people, away from their inherent reliance on the church, which had been fairly rammed down our throats since the 1930's and more? A previous poster touched on Father Ted and subsequent referenda, which more than anything showed a strong resolution amongst voters to enable their power of choice and to reach out from the regressive sheltering of conservative catholicism. It had tremendous power and influence prior to the 90's, people lived in fear of the pulpit, that fear was genuine and existed.

    It is far too easy to scoff at now, but you daren't dis the church back then. I member Gay Byrne patronising Annie Murphy on the Late Late, almost as if it was all her fault that the Bishop of Galway had a child with her? It sounds crazy, but Gay Byrne attacked her like a pariah that night, like she was some sort of force of evil meddling in Irish affairs, the devil's daughter kind of shight.... But that's how people who acted outside of church rules were often ridiculed and spoke of in society at the time, it was chronic.

    I remember getting a detention in school for buying Mates condoms in the Virgin megastore and bringing them into class one day. Many chemists wouldn't stock them and there was outrage in UCD when a dispenser was installed in the Students union. It was polarising stuff. Women who had sex before marriage were looked down upon as some sort of harlots, I am not joking either. Ireland was phucking crap for anyone trying to have a ride or a even have a laugh trying. You couldn't buy johnnies in the middle of an AIDS epidemic, that happened btw!!!

    But.....

    I do think that divorce has disabled modern marriages from the power that healthy marriage unions once held. Prior to divorce getting married meant devoting your heart and soul to someone else till your dying day... and the whole country did it, for better or worse. Every marriage is different but I cannot help holding the belief that divorce has weakened the reason and message of a marriage. Really strong marriages prevail though thick and thin, they understand that they are more than just one of life's cakewalks? Divorce has introduced options which undermines the values of why humans have been devoting themselves to each other for centuries. The concept of modern marriage is more about a day out and white dresses and the photographer and the phucking venue and honeymoon and on and on. Many marriages have not survived the 7 year itch and the reality of their failures leave former partners crippled with debt and financial woes.

    The day of marriage being a lifetime commitment is over and to be frank and honest I think that is to its' detriment. I think that whilst divorce has given couples more options for their future, I lament over how it has devalued and dare I say it demeaned the sanctity and solaces any strong honest marriage was designed to provide. That is either a failing in marriage or a failure in divorce, I just cannot decide.



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