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Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    i meant maybe any blood that was there was on his coat and he could wrap that up inside out. he did burn a coat they found coat buttons. it was a moonlit December night. if he cleaned anything that needed cleaning at the studio no one would have seen him. i would say he was well drunk

    Total nonsense to say Detective Gilligan who was the Dublin forensic man covered up evidence



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Nobody noticed that the car had been cleaned? He wasn't the only person who drove it. Utter nonsense.

    The claim about 'coat buttons' has never been established. That was a claim made by a Garda assigned to collect evidence, not that of an expert analyst. Nothing AGS say on this matter can be given the benefit of the doubt in the light of the Bandon tapes and tampered evidence books.

    He was well drunk, yet was capable of all this in the dark at 3am - 4am leaving no trace at the scene. Pull the other one.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    detective gilligansaid he found coat buttons. i believe him over a bunch of anonymous bailey backers. bandon and phone are strawmen. coat buttonwere found in the fire



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Clothing buttons were found.

    Scene of Crime detective Eugene Gilligan says in the West Cork podcast that in the burned remains they found “shoe eyelets, clothing buttons, jeans, bits of bed clothing, parts of mattress, shoes”.

    So where is the exact quote of coat buttons comes from and how were they established as coat buttons not general clothing buttons.

    Bandon tapes showed that Gardai contemplated altering witness statements.

    DPP report showed evidence books were tampered with by Gardai.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    detective gilligan says coat buttons in the doc.look it up. bailey was a heavy drinker and could function well drunk. it was moonlit not dark



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Gilligan found lots of burned clothing and a mattress. Evidence of a general clearout. And unless and independent expert analyst says coat buttons were found any specific claims are dubious as far as Im concerned.

    It was moonlit it was still night not broad daylight. How was Bailey supposed to see what needed cleaning.

    If he could function well when drunk then whats the relevance of saying he was well drunk.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    You have little if any, understanding of forensics...

    You say coat buttons were found in the remains of the fire?

    So, they didn't burn then?

    Were they steel, brass, or some other non combustible material??

    If they were steel or brass, they were fancy... Surely the coat would have been identified that these fancy buttons adorned?

    Was it a long black trench coat type of garb..?? Surely the Gards would have fired their load at such a revelation..????

    Alas... It was not to be..... They were just mundane buttons.

    Do you really think you can sterilize a bloody murder scene properly in the moon light?? Please say you don't........



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The murder was in December 1996. How many of us can say with certainty what they did or said, or saw or heard on any given day in December 1996, - especially at night or the following morning? And how credible would that all be today? Who on the Mizen Head peninsula was behaving oddly around Christmas? Who had one or two scratches on hands and arms? All hard to say these days. And given it was around Christmas and a lot of people probably had a few to many memories will most likely also be rather sketchy at best, if at all.

    I'd say it'll be a surprise if any of us could remember how many pints of beer we've had even more of a surprise, if Jules could remember how many beers Bailey had, or Whiskeys?

    What I am saying is this is all speculative and circumstantial information and lot's of hearsay.

    And what about that trip by the Guards to Paris to interview this suspect? Any DNA evidence would have come back by now and been linked to the cavity block?

    What I also wondered, if the murderer had an insight into Guarda procedures and knowledge of their lack of competence? Is that something the killer calculated with? Or was it just sheer luck? - it also all depends, if the killer was a Guard or close to the Guards or not.....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    detective gilligan is a forensic expert. it wasn't his first case. i believe he knows what a coat button is and i accept his word over people making excuses for bailey who are not forensic experts.

    I don't have to be able to explain how bailey did this and that. maybe he was lucky. in fact i think he was to a large extent lucky



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Ok.... You've won me over. - Det Gilligan knows what a button is! That swings it for me...

    It's a pity, the great forensic expert Det Gilligan came up against the amazingly lucky murderer Ian Bailey...

    Erm..... That wouldn't be the great forensically acclaimed Detective Gilligan from Dublin would it?? The same one that stated in his own words that he sifted through the burnt remains of the fire with a torch and a fork is it..??

    Jesus... Bailey was lucky!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    I love how some people can't accept how bad the AGS work was despite them; not following the advice of the pathologist to move the body for preservation, letting prime suspects through the Garda cordon to dump items the morning of the murder, forcing Maria Farrell to name Bailey at KB, allowing Maria Farrell to protect an AGS member from being named as a witness, not following up on the Fiesta sighting in their reenactment, not picking up the wine bottle in the vicinity, using a drawing as evidence instead of taking a photo, loosing evidence, tampering with evidence, bribing witnesses to implicate Bailey, ripping out pages and disposing them from job books.

    They literally couldn't have done a worse job and people are still here saying Gilligan says or Dwyer says...

    I find it hard to believe that the level of negligence isn't deliberate. These people can't be that dimwitted. There has to have been AGS involvement to warrant the lengths they went to create a case around IB.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    I also can understand why AGS would want a IB conviction ....l ots of external pressure.

    However it doesn't explain why the person in the car with MF wasn't named.

    It was explained that MF was having an affair. However MF is far from a waxwork. Also her husband Chris Farrell is known for assault most other indiscretions. Hardly who's wife you'd go starting an affair with.

    For me it points to a symbiotic relationship between MF and AGS. It's interesting MF was prepared to flip to team IB obviously she knew fingering him was wrong. However it also seems like a powerplay. As in she had one over on AGS. Suggests AGS were acting unlawfully in their dealings.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    whoever sneered at gilligan because of the spoon does not know much about forensics



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,652 ✭✭✭thecretinhop


    Does anyone find it a bit weird that other German couple said she heard a banshee or something at a cliff while walking and was well rattled by it...



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Too be fair, the local village idiot could have done a better job than Gilligan.

    You say ''He knows what a button is'' - Does that make him forensically astute? How do you make that out??

    A previous post by Owlszat sums it up fairly clearly - The whole original investigation was rotten to the core, so how can you base any credibility on anything Gilligan or Dwyer says...?

    They were purposely and intentionally setting up a citizen to take the rap for the murder of Sophie Du Plantier - It's that simple.

    They were wilfully colluding to fabricate evidence to send a man to prison for the rest of his life.... Think about that for a second.. For life.

    This is not about a bunch of Bailey huggers that want vindication for a man most don't even know...

    This is a bunch of people that realise the implications of such an act...

    To imprison a person for the rest of their life, on trumped up charges that were created and fabricated against them, by the very people who should have been protecting them and upholding the law... In case you didn't notice, this is third world mob rule.

    This is not about Bailey, this is about your Father's, Brothers & Sons. Bailey today, maybe them tomorrow.

    Note - This case has been reviewed several times already... And to this day, not one Guard has been disciplined for corruption.

    There's more evidence to support corruption than there ever was against Bailey... Go figure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    What I've heard often in Ireland was: "If you want help, you call the Guards" "If you don't want help you call the Guards".

    The other thing is if as a Guard you want to be corrupt, you need to go at least intelligently about it. However I doubt very much that any of them was smart. They probably gotten the job because nobody else applied and they fitted maybe the physical requirements.

    Disciplining a corrupt is one thing, but to date there wasn't even a public apology.

    The Bandon Guarda station tapes which they found will provide any of us with answers, - for those who still don't believe and think that there are open questions.

    Anybody remembers the movie called "The Guard". It's probably a fair account of the situation in the West of Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    I find it a bit weird that anybody would actually believe there exists such an entity as a Banshee. It was the cry of a fox. An eerie sound right enough, commonly heard in the countryside. Who were this "other German couple"?

    This is complete guff. Mistakes can occur in any investigation. There was no deliberate fit-up on the part of the Gardai here and there is no clear evidence to contradict that assertion. Bailey was looming large in everybody's mind as a likely suspect. I think we all can understand why. The fact that he was arrested and questioned and then released on two separate occasions does not constitute a breach of his civil rights. The cops had strong reason to believe he did it and brought him in. Fair enough, I say. Where is the corrupt practice evident there? Bear in mind, none of us knows the full extent of the information and evidence gathered during the early stages of the investigation. Given what we do know, far,far greater evidence exists pointing toward Bailey's guilt that that which exists pointing toward a corrupt or malicious investigation process concocted in order to convict him at all costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    Where is the corrupt practice evident there?

    - tampering with evidence

    - bribing witnesses

    - interfering with witnesses

    Just leaving it at those three. That's corruption.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    On the Bandon tapes it was established that members of AGS discussed altering witness statements.

    The DPP (actually three different ones over time) was not prepared to press charges against Bailey.

    GSOC was prepared to press charges against the Guard in charge of the Jobs Book - but he was deceased.

    Deliberately removing pages from the Jobs Books is not a 'mistake'.

    This in the same Guard, recorded on the Bandon tapes as saying:

    Liam Hogan, now deceased, also talks about going back to "fill in" statements

    And:

    "I know but it's in the statement, it has to be taken f*****g out of it."

    GSOC doesn't consider that corruption apparently.

    Well I do.

    We only have the Bandon Tapes through unusual circumstance.

    Like Maurice McCabe, if it hadn't been recorded, no one would credit it.

    This is only the tip of the iceberg.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭robwen


    Were the lights on in any rooms in Sophie's house the morning after/of the murder or were all the lights off in the house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    allowing Maria Farrell to protect an AGS member from being named as a witness, not following up on the Fiesta sighting in their reenactment

    Are you one of these who subscribes to the folly that it was a member of AGS in the car with Farrell and the whole thing is a cover-up to sheild a member of AGS as the murderer ?

    That's complete bollix if you ask me.

    If she and the Gardai were protecting a member why did she send others on a wild goose chase with the names of a taekwondo teacher and a dead man ?

    Why did she walk out of court and head to the railway station rather than give the name under oath ?

    Farrell is a completely unreliable witness.

    She is so full of s**t it's unbelievable.

    She has something wrong with her that she wanted to become part of all this that she made up a story about that night.

    And it backfired on her so spectacularly that she no longer lives anywhere Schull and can never return.

    As for the fiesta car. That was ruled out as not being the same type of car that Sophie drove.

    If there really was a grand Gardai conspiracy to protect a Garda who committed the murder how would that work?

    How could it be kept quiet for a quarter century?

    It's not as of this is some obscure case that few know about, this is as high profile a case has ever been seen in this country.

    But somehow they have managed to keep the conspiracy going through multiple generations of Gardai.

    I'm not suggesting that the Gardai have been impeccable in this case.

    They had a prime suspect but could never nail him, and they got frustrated as time went on and some of that frustration was a result of their early mistakes in the case, that's why they tried stunts like they did.

    But listen to the West Cork podcast.

    There is a part where a Garda says something like "if he heard the wailing of her poor parents in the morgue that Christmas morning....".

    The "he" he was referring to was Bailey .

    I can't remember if he said it to the podcast or whether it was on an excerpt from the Bandon Tapes, but he said it with real feeling, and compassion for Sophie and her family.

    He did not say it like some who was saying it just to say it, knowing full well that he was covering up for one of his own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    They wouldn't have to keep it going 'for generations'. Just screw up and taint the original evidence gathered, and point things in the direction of Bailey. And after that it has its own momentum.

    Nobody can go back to the original scene in a pristine state. Nobody can go back to the first crucial 72 hours of the investigation.

    So of course the corrupt guards could send guards not in on it on a wild goose chase. They couldn't not do it. Once you start down the path, you continue on it.

    Whether it was a Guard or not, or Farrell is making the whole thing up, I don't know. That's how much the original investigation was botched and Farrell is unreliable. But a Guard is plausible.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    But the thing about conspiracies is that the more than know about the cover up the harder it is to keep the cover up.

    How many Gardai would have to be in on it, quite a few, Schull, Bandon, Cork city, the ones that came down from Dublin ?

    You can't keep that secret amoung that many for 25 years in a high profile case.

    We have not heard a dikie bird about it being a Garda from any reliable source all these years.

    It's not plausible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    As I said: 

    Nobody can go back to the original scene in a pristine state. Nobody can go back to the first crucial 72 hours of the investigation.

    Just screw up and taint the original evidence gathered, and point things in the direction of Bailey. And after that it has its own momentum.

    You only need a few to do that.

    Why would we hear anything? They'd be incriminating themselves. Some of them are already dead.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Why would we hear anything?

    In the media

    Podcasts, articles, tv shows etc

    Plenty have been out about the case over the years, but none ever suggested a Garda being responsible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    All that would show is the person who could most easily cover things up, and set an investigation on the wrong track, is a cop.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe



    A lot of things are not plausible about this case.

    Regarding police corruption, I don't think it went all the way up to Dublin. I mean, it could have, but thinking positively, I don't think so, because if so, the whole Irish Guarda would be a bunch of criminals themselves. A country like Ireland could certainly not afford this, especially if they want to attract international investment.

    Dublin police was most likely to certainly not into any drug activity by some bent Guards in South West Ireland, nor would they have been interested in accepting the incompetence those Guards portrayed during the whole investigation. It would have to have been something local in my opinion, Schull, Bandon, but certainly not Cork or Dublin.

    It would have to have been down to one or two Guards, coercing others, for whatever reason or motive we don't know or can only speculate about. Suppose the local Guards or one or two of them were in on drug trafficking, things would have been noticed. Sudden extraordinary expenses, new and expensive cars, a property purchase without financing. Especially in rural Ireland where everyone knows everyone else this would have stood out, and looking at how incompetent the Guards behaved in the investigation, I don't think none of them were wise, experienced or capable to funnel and later on hide dirty drug money to some secret bank account in Switzerland. And bent Guards who have an extra income out of drug trafficking certainty don't drive Ford Fiestas.

    In light of these thoughts this would all point towards that particular bent Guard from Bantry killing Sophie for a sexual motive and then having enough internal knowledge of the structure of the local police force to either coerce others to play along or put pressure on somebody even to frame somebody if need be. Also, a sexual motive like this doesn't leave a paper or money trail.

    And for whatever reason, we don't know Marie Farrell could be coerced, same as Martin Graham, but not Leo Bolger or Alfie Lions. And I am sure, the local Guards had more than enough on Leo or Alfie to coerce them into whatever favours they needed....

    We also don't know who pressured the Guards to solve this case and frame somebody if necessary. Was it to deviate from something? If so from what? Drugs? Sex?

    What I mean, is what would have happened or what would the public or the media have thought if the Guards explored every possible avenue of the crime in detail but still gotten nowhere? I'd say it's better to have an unsolved crime and every possibility explored than a very obvious case of police incompetence and corruption to frame somebody by all means.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,875 ✭✭✭leath_dub


    Recent interview with the main man. He's got 3 egrees, you know.

    And he's not Englush, hr's Welsh.




    Post edited by leath_dub on


This discussion has been closed.
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