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Collins Centenary Setpiece

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,718 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Why did you use your first post so in this thread to have a go at your usual hobby horses, FG and Leo, with barely a mention of Collins?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,718 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Well, it's better than commemorating people who plant bombs in fish and chips shops that killed a seven and ten your old child.


    Planting bombs in a fish and chip shop is a war crime according to the Geneva Convention.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Collins was at this stage being sidelined by the new 'government' Some say that Collins was 'taken out' as he was a bit of a loose cannon and was going to go after the six counties after he had built up the army. Some quoted him as making statements along those lines.

    Post edited by saabsaab on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭almostover


    Also, when the treaty was signed the Free State included NI. There was a clause included in the Treaty that NI could opt-out of the Free State if it wished. This opt-out clause was duly exercised by the NI government the day after the Treaty was signed. Collins would have been aware that this choice would have been taken by NI but to state that Collins was a traitor who partitioned Ireland shows a complete lack of knowledge of the history of our country. Or perhaps willful ignorance towards it.

    Ireland was partitioned long before the 1920s, that happened during the plantations of Ulster. Britain created this mess and ultimately they must play their part in solving it. What this boils down to is that successive Tory governments have used NI Unionist MPs as a bargaining tool in Westminster to gain power. Once power was gained they were tossed aside like a used prophylactic, time and time again. Britain wouldn't be long calling for a border poll if SF took their seats in Westminster and began supporting non-Tory governments. It would take real gall and leadership by SF to do so, to do as Collins did and put blind ideology aside about the Oath and get on with the business of dragging Ireland away from a repressive Empire. Even De Valera recognised the folly of blind ideology in the end. It's time for SF to do the same and for Ireland to prosper as a United island.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,718 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    What would you alternative have been to the Treaty? Continue fighting a Guerilla war against Britain until all young Irish volunteers were killed? I'm sure Collins was acutely aware of the IRA's capability to continue fighting when he signed the Treaty. Guessing the IRA had little left to give.

    To follow on your post, what would the alternative be to an Ireland that wasn't partitioned? How could Collins and Co. achieve this, without more bloodshed and without risking all-out war with the Ulster Volunteers? Some people have a very niave and childlike view of history.

    Answers on a postcard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭almostover


    It's a good question but answers can only be speculative. My take is that Collins may have used the National Army to support continued IRA guerilla operations in NI in an attempt to destabilise the government there. Perhaps in an attempt to make the British establishment believe that NI was more trouble than it's worth as a member of the United Kingdom. The success of that approach of course would have been predicated on the political landscape in Britain, if the Liberals / Torys did not need the UUP for a Westminster majority then this tactic may have worked.

    Collins too may have elected to take a more proactive approach to the Border Commission and may have tried to strengthen ties between the Free State and NI. He may have tried to provide more financial support to Nationalists and their businesses through this. May have been a Unification by stealth approach. Or perhaps a combination of both approaches. It's a question that'll never be answered.

    However, those who state that Collins was a traitor for signing the treated do have to offer a credible alternative, I've yet to hear one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Wholly wrong, I could post stuff from McGuinness in the early 80's speaking of an end to discrimination and him calling for equal rights for all. Hardly 'after the fact'. It was a part of the campaign, successfully achieved.

    But you'd ignore it. So anyone interested can head to google and find it for themselves.


    Back to the topic of the thread.

    Any answer to the question raised in the OP?


    Are there votes still for FG in playing the Collins card?

    Seems to me there are a lot of people laughing at the FF/FG hijack yesterday.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Because the OP wrote an OP on Varadkar and FG and FF. Did you READ the OP at all?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That's remarkably similar to the sentiments expressed by Sabrina Coyne in the Irish Times about Ukraine. 'What is the point of more bloodshed'.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The IRA were in no position to fight a larger war. Those familiar with the logistics and the evolution of the British colonial forces response during the WoI have pointed that out long since. Fighting such a war in Ireland of course would have poisoned the USA against Britain. The “special relationship” isn’t quite the myth the Brits imagine. Realistically the problem with Unionism blossomed when the British govt failed to take Churchills advice and shoot the army officers who indicated they would not uphold the democratic decision of Westminster and suppress the terrorism of the UVF and Unionism in 1914.

    It becomes interesting today to see the same fear of having to face unionist terrorism infects the Irish govts approach to the North. Martin went on the record questioning the GFA itself and the border poll. He wanted a majority within unionism to decide. Think about that. Unionist votes to count for more than anyone else. He suggested permanent unionist cabinet members. Permanent. Regardless of the democratic outcome of elections. If you are not alarmed by that you obviously share a very strange view of democracy. And if you think that Ireland is any state to face down unionist terrorism look at the state of the Defence Forces today. Strange how they have ended up in such a poor condition. Almost as if….

    Collins Centenary Setpiece was a sad misjudgment which shows how cynical our politicians are. I look forward to an early border poll. I believe it will be defeated and this state can finally move on from the toxic black hole that is “Ulster” unionism and its distorting effect on all our lives. Except those nationalists who will have to live among its gerrymandered colonial border.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    At the heart of the FG FF hijack yesterday is the fear of losing the power they carved out by forgetting about Irish people living in the north.

    They are quaking in their proverbial boots because they are at the gates now. A merger seems to be what they are heading towards in a last ditch effort.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The damage they are doing to democracy in their endless raking over the wounds of the Troubles is unconscionable.

    The Irish people accepted it was time to move on in 1998. The Queen of England can simply say “To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy. With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all.” and it is acclaimed as sufficient. If it is, it is.

    Why are FFG at this deliberately? What fear lies behind it that they denigrate the democratic decision of many Irish people? Are some votes not to be regarded as legitimate? Posturing about reconciliation while tearing at wounds is shocking. Politics is sinking lower.



  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭thefa


    I’ve heard it before too and it’s a bit of stretch to put it kindly. Given his abilities, character and experience, there’s more of a chance of him becoming one of the best political leaders in Irish history than a fascist dictator.

    I don’t expect different though. Imagine some of the few who try to paint Collins in a bad light probably turn around and complain about today’s politicians doing nothing. Can’t win with some.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,718 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Well its easier to shout out stuff online and be a keyboard warrior about your nationalism, than actually do something as simple as engaging one's brain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,718 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    This is the same McGuinness who said 'No surrender to the British'?



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yes. Part of what he stood for was equality and parity of esteem.

    That was codified into the GFA.

    Maybe listen to the world leaders who spoke at his funeral. But I know you won’t and will doubtless pivot to something else.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And where did he say this,or when did he surrender to the British?


    Liberials hate facts and logic,it seems🧐



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,625 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    yes. I wasnt aware his portrait is in stormont as MP for Armagh.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,625 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    yes very interesting. You say "What would you alternative have been to the Treaty? Continue fighting a Guerilla war against Britain until all young Irish volunteers were killed? I'm sure Collins was acutely aware of the IRA's capability to continue fighting when he signed the Treaty. Guessing the IRA had little left to give". You could replace Collins with Adams and come forward 80 years and that is a fairly accurate account of why the current SF are administrating British rule in the 6 counties. I'd love to know will it happen again in another 50 years?



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As for Collins,if himself,griffth and co had held out in negotiations we would never had partition or the troubles that followed,the early years of free state wouldn't been hamstrung by weak economic output (85% of island output was based within 30 miles of Belfast).....we wouldn't have been riddled with decades of emigration and stagnation,the Catholic church wouldn't gotten the rotten grip it did and effects of industrial schools and mother/baby homes would been deminished with a large protestant element also involved and having a stake in running state


    Instead,he took English guns to force British objectives on the population,and launch a counter revolution....77 offial state killings during civil war,and estimated 350 deaths from unofficial reprisals and not an iota of an apology from state to the public as it forced republicans out of state,going as far as still harassing people attending easter commerations in places...


    .the fact this is pushed as something to be celebrated by the media and state is deeply perplexing,even more perplexing that Liam lynch's conmeration few weeks ago over in Newcastle was simply glossed over with to best my knowledge no offial government attendance.....100 years on,we have barely acknowledged what happened in civil war



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,337 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    I can assure you they're all quite dead and not rotating at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    The fact that this is your impression of the history of the time is a condemnation of our education system. And I say that as a History teacher.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Might one inquire as to why one sees “Queen” as the very acme and zenith of achievement? Or am I assuming your gender and you are in fact a participant in Ru Paul’s Drag Race?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,051 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams




  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's the truth,and everyone knows it,what we were taught in school


    What do you feel is factually inaccurate? (Though I do accept the figure of offial killings is potentially 78 instead of 77?),


    Liam lynch death being one of most senior during civil war,also regarded as signal of the end,people can travel from Armagh,Galway/mayo,even America and noone sent from Leinster House,instead we presented with sanitised nonsense as history,that exactly opposes what people who took part told us in school



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Wrong on both counts. Actually refers in part to a surname, Mulqueen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭History Queen


    I object to your simplistic analysis. If they had "held out" in negotiations as you put it, the most likely outcome would've been exactly what was promised ie. War



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  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    By same people whom went on to appease the nazis??


    Coming out of a world war one,tell us,since yous are the history expert here,what exactly did Churchill,the man whom deployed black and tan, say about the continued occupation of Ireland,if the negotiations had failed?



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