Home heating automation

Thanks @deezell for the very helpful post, it seems running a wire is probably my best option although I had hoped to avoid that. So no way to do it with an additional receiver instead?

The Hive receiver firmware is actually still the stock firmware, my workaround didn't touch any of the Hive hardware it just used a software API to read status from the servers they use for app. All the additional control was then using the Z wave switch.

The location of the wall stat is actually probably more difficult to wire back to the boiler/receiver so if I do it will be to the hotpress.

Would I just use one strand of the wire from receiver CH On and use it to replace the switched live on my valve (leaving the existing live & neutral on the valve)?

Picture below of the hotpress valve, I cant see the wiring without opening up.

I am not aware of any Z wave device that would just read the presence of 220v on an input, I did consider that before but will try the google machine again.

I do have a spare Z Wave switch relay though so will power it up and see it how it shows up in Domoticz and Home Assistant when powered vs unpowered.

If there is a suitable attribute that allows me to distinguish between when it is powered and online vs unpowered and offline might be able to use that as a proxy for whether there is voltage on the CH On contact

i.e. wire its neutral input to neutral on the Hive and its live input to the Hive CH On. I presume then it would only power on when Hive is calling for heat? I would leave its switch outputs unconnected as would be using its status as online/offline to drive automation to turn on/off the switch on the old wall stat rather than On/Off.

You say you correctly connected one smart system, ( the Tado?) but go on to describe the old manual stat in the hall which you didn't deal with. (Leaving it there turned up full is generally the simplest fix once your Tado wireless receiver takes over control of CH calls). If your system was capable of separate control of heating and hot water, using timers and manual switches, then the installation of the Tado with ext kit would replicate this, but only if the wiring was understood and correctly configured. Any alternative smart system to Tado will also be "next to useless" if not installed correctly. There are many flavours of CH/HW systems out there using at a minimum a single circulation pump for CH and gravity feed for HW, to various combinations of pump, or pumps, valves, single or S/Y plan, and various single or zoned mechanical or electronic timers, with or without a wall stat. How these are cobbled together is limited only to the imagination of whoever was handed the box of parts and the screwdriver during the build.

I'm guessing you probably have a single zone CH with a gravity HW system. This will heat CH with HW while the stat was open, or HW only when the stat is off, with the timer controlling heating periods for both. Moving this to a Tado or other two zone receiver requires a bit of wire tracing to get exactly right. Moreover, the two zone receiver needs to be capable of wiring into gravity mode, so that all calls to the boiler are a combination of CH or HW timer calls, but control of the valve or pump for CH is only operated by the CH timed/thermostat output. This can be achieved in the older Tado extension kit by setting a gravity mode in configuration. On the newer Tado or Nest HW/CH receivers which have volt free No and Nc contacts, these can be wired to emulate gravity mode. It's not immediately obvious to the diy installer if his system is a mixed bag of one timer, two zones, pump and/or valve, CH stat , possibly a HW cylinder stat also. Indeed, it seems to be beyond many of the 'trained' installers who rushed around installing the promotional 'free' stats which garnered huge grant credits for the utilities.

No is my short answer to your last question, but if you're getting an ideal combi boiler installed with the panel for the interface, you've nothing to lose by popping in the receiver unit into the front panel and trying it out. I assume you can set up schedules etc on the app, and I'd assume Google/aAlexa integration would permit requests to raise/lower temperature, either incrementally or to a specific temperature. If you require zoned heating with zone valves, an optional extra wiring receiver can be bought and paired to provide control directly to the zone valves. It's listed as a two zone add on, but appears to have terminals for mutiple CH and HW zone valves. Its not that expensive either for this kit which comes with an extra wireless stat for the second CH zone.

Suck it and see, its a doddle to add to the Ideal boiler when it's installed. If you're not going fir a combi with direct HW, I'd expect you need the add on valve control receiver.

Is the bathroom the only UFH in the house. Is it plumbed or electric UFH? How is it turned on, as part of general zone?

It's an electric UFH, something similar to this one. https://tilestyle.ie/products/flexel-cable-mat-16-0?_pos=1&_sid=b9db0e419&_ss=r

This is the only room in the house that has UFH, I plan to turn it on via the thermostat which would treat it as an individual zone in the house.

So how is it currently turned on? Is it fitted with the 'digital thermostat ' mentioned in your link, or just wired up to a switch somewhere. Looking at the spec sheet for the one you linked, mains current requirement would be within the rating of a smart stat or it's relay receiver wired directly as the control. Most of these can handle 3a or more, even with 3m2 of UFH elements the current require is under 2 amps. If the wiring centre for this is in another room, or behind a switch just outside, you could wire an Evohome receiver to this location to turn it on, and locate the paired Evohome stat in the bathroom itself. If you're happy to have a separate app for the bathroom, you could choose any of the smart stats like Tado, Drayton wiser, Hive, and connect their receivers to the current switch point for this, then install their battery stats in the bathroom. I doubt if you have the 'digital stat' mentioned on the TileStyle link, its €690! Yikes. Descibe where the current switch is, on the wall outside? In the hotpress or up high in the bathroom ceiling on a pullcord?

It's a newly constructed ensuite in an attic conversion. So the UFH mat is already installed and the cable for it is pulled up to a point in the wall just outside the bathroom and there is electrical cable run to that point also. I "think" I just need to install the smart thermostat at that point in the wall and run a temp sensor cable to underneath the tile. Have you a link to the type of Evohome receiver you mean? I'm using 10 radiator thermostats at the moment, and I know the max thermostats you can use with the Evohome is 12. So, would this Evohome stat you mention take one of those last 2 spots? As I still need to put 2 more in the attic conversion, but I can probably take one of another bedroom in the house that isn't used much.

question to those who have upgraded from normal heating to smart heating.

i was looking at drayton in the prime sale. it is an expensive hobby to replace everything to smart heating.

the dual zone kit is 160GBP

if you have 9 radiators and want to convert them all, then 390pounds for 3 multi pack

for the TRV body - 9 of them - another 150 pounds.

may be 2 smart plugs to extend signal - 60 pounds..

total approx - 760 pounds :-(

thanks @deezell as always for your guidance..it will definitely save few euros

otherwise do you agree with the costing i mentioned?

Apologies to @bittihuduga, this is a reply/rant I wrote in July, but never pressed the post button. On android, It sits in the cache until you next look at the blog.

If you're getting the dual zone, two thermostat kit for £160, and three TRV heads for £130 per pack, that's seems like top value.

If every rad has a smart TRV, then it's possible to have just a single main stat and zone, as the smart TRVs effectively create their own plumbed zones, so you don't actually need the two existing plumbed zones as such. It's still a popular and easier understood configuration though, upstairs, downstairs, then mechanical TRVs on most all rads within these zones, with the option of adding smart heads in selected rooms that you might want to lower temperature of or cut completely.

Upstairs for example, you might only want to heat the master bedroom from the evening on, and not any of the others. Conversely, one bed might be an office what with WFH, so during the day you will need this only. Most times landing and bath will be connected, with mechanical TRV capping, or just simple adjustment of the lockshield valve.

I've come across two cases of exactly this during Covid, in New builds. Upstairs zone required on during the day for office purposes, meaning all beds roasting daytime when the upstairs zone fired. All rads were equipped with mechanical TRVs, so capping was possible except where the zone stats were sited, which were normal valves, Master bed and Lounge. This seems to be the common config of all new builds claiming A rating, coupled with sprung closed doors to prevent convection flow from capped or closed rooms to used ones. Individual room TRVs, dumb or smart, are only as effective as the sub zone thermal isolation, but effective nonetheless. Most new owners I've met have defeated the spring doors though... banging drove them nuts.

My advice has been to add smart main stats if not already installed, and option smart TRVs. One new build I checked was fitted with big standard mechanical dial stats as the main stats, one recessed in the dry lining board next to the outside wall. The stat read as low as 12° due to cold outer wall air and conduction ingress within its confine inside the internal 100 mm dry lining insulated slab. The room was baking as the stat stayed on, the room air of 21° plus never reaching or influencing the chilled sensor space of the stat. Turning the stat right down to switch off the heat meant that when the room cooled below comfort, the stat was now set too low to respond and bring back on the heat. Every new house in the estate fitted like this.

I installed two Tado stats in this one, having sealed the recessed socket box behind as best as possible, but still had to add a 2° offset to counter the external wall influence as the stat was effectively mounted over a thermal hole in the inner 100mm insulated board. The metal electrical backing boxes were directly over the coldest outer leaf of brick, for the stat and also numerous power sockets, creating cold ingress. With Drayton wireless, you can relocate the stat optimally, but the correct wiring of the receiver is not as simple as a wired wall stat swap.

I seriously doubt if many of these new builds actually achieve A rating, as BER is assessed on a paper exercise, not an actual thermal test. Hidden errors go undetected. Same goes for used house sales BER, they just tot up all the visible attributes and score them so if you've installed a condenser boiler your rating rises, even though your house is still hard to heat, with poorly sealed dry lining and draughty sockets. Carelessly fitted insulation boards between inaccessible and uninspectable double leaf block walls, inner dry lining board to exterior wall returned to the exposed attic, not capped by the horizontal laid ceiling boards but inside them at the joint, creating a gap for cold roof space air to drop right down between the thin inner dry lining, making a joke of the insulated double cavity to the outside. (My own 1980s house, I discovered after purchase in 2001. Still working on it). Air whistling in through power outlets. Wall vent holes through the inner insulation leaf without sealing with 100mm pipe (lift off inner wall vent covers to check this one).

Smart stats and TRVs are beneficial, but a forensic examination of cold sources is really the only way to save bucks, but is slow and time consuming to remedy. Start with the stats.

thanks @deezell for your detailed input.

i didnt buy yet but may go ahead and get one now.

next thing is to find the ideal rads where i can replace mechanic try with the smart try.

Smart Mechanical Switch, SONOFF M5 80 Type Wifi Wall Light Switch Works with Alexa and Google Home, [Neutral Wire Required] 1 Gang 1 Way https://amzn.eu/d/fEcOYzE

This or any of these single wifi app controlled switches would have sufficient current rating to trigger a boiler. Plenty of odd brand Chinese stuff on amazon for small money.

Second one is the battery powered low voltage switching US type. Not suitable for EU/UK. First is gen 3 mains voltage switching via the included wireless/wired relay receiver (heatlink box) which directly controls boiler, or two valves for seperate HW/CH zone valve switching. Stat is powered either by mains adapter or by wired power from the heatlink box. If you put this stat in the bedroom, it can be powered from the heatlink receiver relay located next to the boiler by isolating and reusing the wire pair from the old stat to the boiler. Very important to ensure these wires have no mains on them if you choose this method. Otherwise you can connect the Nest wirelessly to the heatlink and locate it anywhere, powered by small plug in charger. As you don't have a separate HW circuit, you can use the HW relay on the heatlink to have separate zoned heating for HW and CH, which will require some plumbing. Your current HW is gravity from the boiler? Have you separate control of HW and CH? I'll need to reread your older posts.

Are the two Immermat switches(timers?) opening two motorised valves to send the hot flow to their respective zones. When you turn on a zone, does this also bring on the boiler, or do you have to manually turn it on to fire. I would expect the boiler to be fired by the relays on your zones' motorised valves, but sometimes zoning is implemented using pumps only. A few pics will help. Is the boiler grant condenser boiler? If so, it doesn't operate as a gravity source, the circulation pump is required ON when it fires, which would explain why certain rads always heat when only HW is required.

The solar Eddie box is used the divert unused solar PV electricity to the Immersion element of your cylinder. For this to be useful the HW temperature at the lower level of the cylinder should be below the immersion thermostat limit, so that there is always 'spare cool water in the bottom of the cylinder needing to be heated even if the oil has just been on. The newer cylinders have this element horizontal and low down in the cylinder, so are ideal. Older cylinders with top mounted immersion may not be able to accept the electric source if the water is already too hot from the oil boiler input.