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Who shot Michael Collins.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,806 ✭✭✭buried


    My grandfather used to tell me the story of a man he worked with, said he went to pay his respects where Collins was laid out in state, this man said that there wasn't a mark on him. Basically no mark of anything to the front of his head or the face. Photographs taken while he was laid out also show little to no damage to the face. Now, that could mean it was a bullet shot to the back of the head, but, as a soldier who basically invented modern Irish guerilla warfare, Michael Collins didn't get to where he did by exposing his back to enemies he knew were present out in such a field of a guerilla ambush he had actually taught himself.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,806 ✭✭✭buried


    Distasteful my arse. If the same thing happened to you or me, they wouldn't be two seconds digging you or me up. I mean, the least they can do is give the man a legitimate autopsy report for cause of death. He deserves one far more than you or me.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    🙄🙄

    What are your qualifications in history?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I disagree. What if those (or at least some of those) responsible for the founding of the State were involved in killing a colleague? What if a British agent carried out such a killing? A rewrite of the History at least.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭thefa


    I wouldn’t be religious but anytime you dig up a corpse it should serve a significant purpose and I wouldn’t be the only person who think digging up Collin’s 100 year old corpse would be in poor taste. Filling out an autopsy report doesn’t do it for me but might for some of a different persuasion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    I find your posts condescending. And I don't know what qualifications you have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    Florence O'Donoghue was head of intelligence of the irregulars and would certainly have had a fair idea where Collins and his entourage were heading to. He chased with the hare and hunted with the hounds and it is highly likely that he had direct contact with Collins or the ability to do so as they were both active in the intelligence units since the War of independence. You are talking cloak and dagger stuff anywhere south west of the Golden Vale.

    Chief of Staff of the irregulars was Liam Lynch, he was from around Fermoy triangle south west of the Galtees and Knockmealdowns, he definitely gave the nod to ambush, any connections with Dev would leak from there. Lynch literally called the shots and was most certainly Devs eyes and ears and the rest. He was the boss, in saying that he was on the same IRB council as Collins, knew him personally, so it just goes to highlight how cutthroat and nasty it got.

    Motivations are anyone's guess? Lynch was a real mountain bandit and a brilliant Guerilla , knew all the tricks. In saying that i can't be positive he knew all that more about deep west Cork, but as CofS he definitely knew who did , as would have Florrie O'Donoghue.

    It was chaotic stuff, radio silence, orders on one page notes that could bee eating by commanders. The fact that Dev was local could possibly have been a trope to lure Collins? But we will never know.

    Trigger pullers from West Cork were widely in abundance. Any decent pheasant shooter would be able to target someone from a suitable position, anyone in that ambush Brigade would have been carefully selected by Lynch. I wouldn't rule out friendly fire either, but I would not be as cynical as arguing it was deliberate. All Irishmen who got caught up in that phuckfest of a war were literally scrapping for their lives and they all knew it. Collins being down there was bordering on lunacy, but I reckon he thought he was meeting irregulars for talks. i just doubt he would have had traitors in his circle.

    It is not entirely fair of me to implicate Florrie O'Neil , he may not have been involved and he was progressive about uniting IRA members on both sides. But for sure he knew them all and whilst his intention may not have been to see Collins ambushed he certainly knew where he was, where he was going and most importantly what he was led to believe by both Anti and pro treaty commanders, it was his job to know and he was respected and trusted by both sides. As I said there were no shortage of decent soldiers to pull the trigger and Lynch modelled them all. Lynch would have been all over that operation I reckon.

    It was ugly nasty stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,806 ✭✭✭buried


    Well the significant purpose in this case would be trying to investigate the murder of a national Hero who fought for his country. Investigate the murder and establish an official cause of death and autopsy report. You say that is in "bad taste", well that's fair enough for you, but, for me the "bad taste" is members of the current official establishment utilising this mans murder as a symbol of continuation of their own perceived notions of power. Utilising it while at the same time they have, nor seek any official explanation for his murder. A investigation they could accomplish in the morning. That's what is the actual "bad taste" here.

    And they do not actually have one, nor want to seek it. But they have no problem extolling his life and death, but the investigation to his murder..... nah forget about that. That's what I find really distasteful.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You are one of at least two posters who used the term “sniper” loosely. I was offering some precision. It’s an interesting read and helps to put Mr Cullivan’s assertions in context.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    So you have no qualifications. We'll leave it there so.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    LOL. Ah we won’t. I’m glad you feel better now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Dalton's account is doubted as being accurate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,482 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    it’s not possible to conduct a credible autopsy now..

    As whats left of him would only be dust and some bones. He’s been lying in a casket, 6 feet under the sod for 100 years.

    Embalming only delays decomposition, but only for a short duration of time.

    even skull and bone fragments would be in rough shape…. a century later..



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    They still can do a lot. Like the analysis of 'Towton man' from the Battle of Towton 1461. Reassembled his body and skull. Could tell how he died, his diet through gut remains and bone density etc. Collins skeleton should be in decent nick.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,806 ✭✭✭buried


    The bullet might still be there, none was found at the ambush scene, so maybe... I mean, the man deserves some sort of official investigation as to what happened, seeing as how there is none. They dig up people from hundreds of years ago and with modern scientific forensic techniques can tell you what sort of battle/murder wounds were inflicted as to cause of death.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭thefa


    His death has already been investigated. Everyone involved is dead. I doubt it’s even considered a “murder” since it happened during the early stages of the war. There’s no significant purpose left and it’s stupid to suggest there is.

    The politics is something unrelated to exhuming so think what you want of that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,806 ✭✭✭buried


    Where is the official record of investigation then? Where is the autopsy report to collaborate it? We have people here looking for qualifications but there is no official qualification to what actually happened to the man. Unless you know better and can link us the official investigation and autopsy?

    See, this is a problem, unless the officials can give an actual official account of what happened instead of ignoring it, anybody has carte blanche to think and proclaim what they like happened. And they do.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    Florrie O'Donoghue unlikely I would think. Resigned from the Army Council in June. The army itself 3rd July. Having read his bio of Liam Lynch 'No Other Law', he was sick to his stomach with the decent into Civil War.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Are you sure. In some cases it may be possible to find answers even decades later especially if the body was embalmed. See below..


    'The body of civil rights activist Medgar Evers, who was assassinated in 1963, was exhumed during the much-delayed murder trial of Byron De La Beckwith in 1994. And U.S. President Zachary Taylor’s corpse was disinterred in 1991—141 years after his death—to determine whether he had died from arsenic poisoning. No evidence of poisoning was found, and the coroner in charge of the autopsy concluded that Taylor had died of gastroenteritis.'



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,482 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    True but… all that will remain of him will be skeletal remains.

    no organs, skin or anything.

    no bullet was found during the autopsy.

    it’s believed though that in those days a bullet from a high powered rifle would disintegrate on striking its victims skull, best case scenario, fragments left.

    either way, no party can exhume the body unless the family accede to a request which I doubt they’d be inclined to want to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    This is from last week, Paddy Cullivan again, and there are quite a list of things that remain unexplained. The 6 hours it took them to complete and hour journey back? Yes, it could be mourning, but it could also be sobering up and getting their story straight. I agree that if he was exhumed it would answer a lot of questions.




  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    Napoleon was exhumed in 1840, 19 years after his death, he hadn't been embalmed but his corpse was in remarkably good condition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,806 ✭✭✭buried


    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    'Decomposition depends entirely on the conditions under which the body is buried, and the environmental conditions of where it’s buried.

    If a person is buried in a modern, high-quality casket, complete with the additional concrete “grave vault”, and the body has been treated with standard embalming techniques, it can remain pretty much intact for a very long time. Many become rather “mummified” with the moisture content gradually evaporating.

    A body simply placed in a hole in the ground will very rapidly decompose and depending on the moisture/acidity in the soil even the skeletal remains may began to decompose in fairly short order'



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    I agree. But he certainly had massive sympathies with irregulars and was the intelligence boss for Cork and most likely the rest of Munster and had a direct link over Mount Eagle and connections in Kerry. Tom Barry gave the oration at his funeral.

    Given his opposition to the war I get how it is hard to envisage. But my angle on this is that he may not have had much of a choice over whose ears he was feeding. The best intelligence commanders have to balance lines of communication and that means sacrificing knowledge to everyones' beak. It is murky rancid stuff and whilst I am not convinced he was motivated by assassinating Collins he would have known where is was going and had the ability to warn or dupe either side. So he may have not had the option and had his hand forced by the worse of two evils. I hope I am not implying he was directly involved but his connections to Cork irregulars just cannot be ignored. Tensions were seriously high at the time.

    Put it this way, he knew where and what Collins was up to, so either one of his immediate officers betrayed him and fed the information to the ambush unit, or he fed it himself. Either way he knew at some point what was potentially going down and either chose to ignore it, didn't believe his info would be detrimental or had a leaky unit. it is one of these. Spies could be shot on the spot by either side, he may not have had the option.



  • Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭pummice


    I think we should ask Russia's FSB to investigate this case. They completely solved the Dugin murder within 48hours.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    Very interesting post. I understand what you mean, he had the info on Collins' movements. Being close to so many anti Treaty men that information could have come out in some way. Despite O'Donoghue's respect for Collins, personally he might have been angry with him too.

    On an aside, a few historians I know think Collins may have been well under the influence that night, maybe causing him to leave the armoured car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,023 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Get their story straight ? It took them a while to get back to cork according to the story told by those in the convoy got lost and went through a field where the touring car got stuck and there was also a bridge blown up. They also stopped at a priests house along the way.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,023 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Based on what exactly ? What does he say in his account that doesn’t stack up ? I’m genuinely curious as emmet dalton is one person I’ve never questioned his honesty in his account both in writing or on video.



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