How Pacifism looks to those abroad

And the EU/EEC and NATO has cemented that peace, Francie.

Don't deny history or facts, but we all know you are anti-EU and anti-NATO, so you of course will disagree with the impact these organisations have had on European peace.

Go to the 'should we join NATO' thread, there I outline my disagreement with that point in detail and with backed up points. Stop trying to bring arguments from other threads into this one, far as I know it is against the rules. Well I certainly got a warning about it before.

Who are 'you guys'?

The fact that you don't deny that the PIRA committed war crimes in the North and the UK speaks volumes.

Ah so its always someone elses fault.

The only people guilty of war crimes Francie are those that carry them out, not some nameless backroom people in some other place.

To be honest we probably have a seat on the UN Security Council because of our neutral status. We are not completely pacifist as we do send troops to war zones under UN peacekeeping missions.

Well for one, I don't revere or make excuses for Loyalists or the British Army. So they can **** right off as far as I am concerned.

Neither do I make excuses to the men in SF/PIRA who deliberately planted bombs in civilian areas, a war crime.

The difference is, that many people make excuses for those people who commit war crimes.

francie you could not be a more inaccurate if you stayed up all night to come up with it , 😀😀

the irish have been fighting other peoples wars for hundreds of years , any one who went to primary school should know at least that much.

its really intresting to see the shinnerbots are pro putin now but i guess at least when ye are bought ye stay bought (so far anyway 😉)

The astonishing defence of Putin, including on here, is actually quite scary.

you would wonder what they have to gain from it ,

the hopes of power at any price i suppose

😁

You said it Mark, here it is again. Absolute positive proof we are not 'pacifists'

The thread is discussing whether Irish pacifism is Irish pacifism is 'a naive and juvenile view of reality which undermines our credibility as a neutral country and an EU member.'

I have made the backed up case that we are far from 'pacifist' and you have shown (your reverence or not is immaterial to the topic btw) and Mike has also shown, that you agree. We fight for what we believe in, including against each other.

We are though neutral when it comes to others fighting.

Is there such a movement? I wasn't aware of one. And I certainly wasn't aware that it influenced our policy of neutrality which was born under a government that had many members who physically 'fought' in the Rising, The Civil War and WOI

I agree that the Ukrainians motives are to defend their own homes, family and friends. In terms of what's Europe and what's not Europe, I suppose that's subjective, if I was pushed I'd say all the way to the urals is Europe, which means western Russia is Europe as they've always played a role in European politics and were connected to European monarchy, however it's not really relevant

In terms of ideology, I think it's a weaker motive for the war in Ukraine. It's true that the Ukrainians are defending themselves and that western nations are happy to support such that it weakens their geopolitical opposition, Russia. However, there is the concept of self governance and autonomy, that Ukraine or any self identifying cultural group of people are more likely to prosper and should have the right to autonomy and sovereignty if they choose it. That ideology is on the line. People may see NATO or the eu as the other side of the coin, a self interested group looking to expand influence. But the key difference is that inclusion can only be accessed by the consent of the people in the nation(or the best proxy we can find for consent, democracy). So for me that is the ideological difference between totalitarian states and NATO/western democracy.

Irish Neutrality was born out of being anti-British more than anything.