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Who shot Michael Collins.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,023 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    So there was an autopsy done then ? So why is this line that no autopsy was done being allowed be spread ?

    Well wouldn’t a public enquiry which would’ve needed to include anti treaty IRA men who were part of the ambush have worked ? I doubt it seeing as how I doubt very much any anti treaty IRA would’ve come out in the open and spoke about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Good question. I guess they were in shock and believed the story they were told.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    There may have been but it was 'lost' or by some accounts burned with other sensitive documents.



  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭thefa


    Agree with that. Given all there was to sort out after the civil war and the tensions left over from it, I doubt there was much incentive for public inquiries. Add in the amnesty in late 1924 and the justification becomes weaker while being based on a suspicion of wrongdoing. Imagine deaths of known characters as a consequence of war were more accepted in those days given what had gone before and accounts from significant figures like Dalton would be held in higher regard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,579 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    My granmother died in 1976 aged 102, she knew people who survived the famine and she used to tell my mother stories about the Tans and the War of Independance.

    Its a pity there aren't more recordings of people who lived through this time period.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭brianhere


    Actually I don't think the absence of an Inquest or inquiry was acceptable to many people at the time. For example one of Collins' military leaders in Cork, and friend and TD, Sean Hales, pushed immediately for a proper inquiry. But he was killed in disputed circumstances a short time later.

    http://www.orwellianireland.com



  • Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭brianhere


    "; his bitterness increased when he had to conduct Collins's autopsy and embalmment soon after performing the same service for Griffith"

    That is from the dib.ie entry on Gogarty, which at this stage makes it sort of his official biography. As I said the report was never publicly revealed, and is now lost.

    http://www.orwellianireland.com



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,124 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    I think it was someone on the anti-treaty side that done it. Thinking about it lately maybe Dev did not order it. I think it was someone on the anti-treaty side who thought killing Collins would demoralise the pro-treaty side and that the anti-treaty side would win but it had the opposite effect.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Taken from website..

    'John M. Feehan’s The Shooting of Michael Collins: Murder or Accident?

     

    What can we actually know about the events that transpired on August 22, 1922? Feehan offers this summary:

    • Collins was shot with a bullet from a Mauser type pistol
    • We cannot be certain who shot Collins at this time
    • Some type of cover-up happened after Collins’s death

       

    First, Feehan contends that Collins was shot with a bullet from a Mauser type pistol. [What is that? It is a weapon made by the German manufacturer Mauser, which was used rather notoriously by at least a few rogue IRA members in the 1920s. Feehan describes it in this way: “The barrel and body of the Mauser pistol are in one piece and it is normally supplied with a wooden holster which can be attached to the grip of the pistol and so turn it into a mini-rifle which can be fired from the shoulder. It usually fires a 7.45 mm or 9 mm bullet which, when it strikes and enters an object, expands and tumbles and can tear the flesh to pieces inside.” If you would like to know more, I would suggest you visit the Mauser Website. If you are less of a gun enthusiast and would just like the bottom line: it’s a weapon that can produce gruesome and terrifying results when used in gruesome and terrifying ways.] The bullet entered through his forehead and blew out the side of his head. It was not a ricocheted bullet and it was not a dum-dum bullet. A ricocheted bullet would make a gash of one to two inches and the bullet would stay inside the head. The IRA had been instructed not to use dum-dum bullets and it is not probable that anyone in the ambush would have disobeyed the order. A dum-dum bullet would have stayed in the head and would have left a wound similar in size to a ricocheted bullet. No bullet was found in Collins’s head and none of the witnesses mentioned that dum-dum bullets were used. Witnesses claim that they did see a small wound on Collins’s forehead and such a wound would be consistent with what a Mauser type pistol would do.

     

    Second, we simply cannot know with certainty who shot Michael Collins. Feehan says it definitely was not Sonny O’Neill, Eamon DeValera or John McPeak. Feehan also says that in an interview, Emmet Dalton admitted that it is possible that he accidentally shot Collins. If indeed Dalton did make such a comment, it does not prove that it was a bullet fired by Dalton that killed Collins and, in fact, the only way to know would be to exhume Michael’s body. In his film diary, Neil Jordan relates a story relating to a supposed diary kept by Emmet Dalton (see the Collins in Love section also). Allegedly, this diary reveals a shocking conspiracy:

     

    "In the diary, the unnameable friend claims, there is an admission that Dalton shot Collins at close range with a Luger pistol. That Dev and Collins had arranged to meet but that radicals in both camps wanted to continue the fight so arranged for both of their executions. Dalton was to kill Collins; Liam Lynch, the head of the Irregulars, was to kill de Valera. Dalton got the opportunity and did it. Liam Lynch didn't, so de Valera survived" (Neil Jordan).

     

    Not surprisingly, this Dalton diary has never been produced and so it is vital to keep a realistic perspective on such a claim. 

     

    Third, a cover-up of some nature took place after Collins’s death. There were no inquests, no enquiries, and no proper autopsy was performed. (Seems a bit odd that nothing official took place, considering that Collins was the Commander-in-Chief of the Free State Army.) For some reason, nearly every document pertaining to Collins’s death has been destroyed or has "disappeared." The cap on display in the National Museum as Collins’s cap cannot be his cap because it is too small. The cap has a red stain on it which is supposed to be blood, but after time, a true blood stain would have turned black. The cap is torn as though a bullet tore it but it was never examined for powder marks and the stain was never tested to see if it was indeed a stain from Collins's blood. There is a story that Collins’s cap was given to Seán Hales as evidence that Collins did not get shot by a ricocheted bullet but that cap has vanished.

     

    Feehan finally concludes that it is not fair to charge anyone with shooting Collins because there just isn’t enough evidence.'



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Also this source politics.ie

    'Dalton's family signed an affidavit saying that he killed Michael Collins. There is a copy of it and related documents in the 'O'Mahony Papers' in the National Library. https://www.nli.ie/pdfs/mss lists/130_SeanOMahony.pdf


    Here are the file numbers.


    On the same site

    'Dr. Leo Ahern said there was only one large entrance wound and no exit wound. No forehead wound was found. Dr. Michael Riordan also examined the body and agreed with Ahern. One large, deep entrance wound with part of the head blown off was the conclusion. Dr. Christy Kelly confirmed Riordan’s appraisal, Dr. Gerard Ahern spoke of Kelly telling him about the wound and Dr. Cagney told the same story. Gogarty, the embalmer, said he thoroughly checked for forehead wounds and found none.'



  • Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭thefa


    One of the most bizarre attempts to smear Dalton occurred in 1987.

    An elderly Dublin pawn shop clerk, Joe Dalton, swore an affidavit with a solicitor, the late Larry Murphy, claiming to be Emmet’s nephew, and stating that “Uncle Emmet” told him he shot Collins “with a Luger pistol”. According to Murphy, Joe had IRA or republican “tendencies”.

    A copy of the affidavit is in the National Library archives and figured in a recent academic study of Collins.

    The problem is that County Monaghan-born Joe Dalton, who led a frugal, reclusive bachelor life and died in 1988 at age 73, was not related in any way to Emmet, and there is no indication that they ever even met.

    But he is still described as a “nephew” in a library catalogue.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah here. We can all do that.

    “Ryan concludes from her evidence:

    "Michael Collins was not shot by a bullet from a Mauser pistol.

    Michael Collins was not killed by a ricochet bullet. Michael

    Collins was shot by the Republican who said, 'I dropped one man.

    Author James MacKay corroborates her conclusion in Michael Collins: A Life:

    "Shortly after admission, the dead leader was examined by Dr. Patrick Cagney who had served with the Royal Army Medical Corps during the First World War and was an authority on gunshot wounds. He had no hesitation in concluding that Michael had died from a wound inflicted by a Lee-Enfield.303 high-velocity rifle. The bullet had made a neat hole on entering the skull at the hairline, but had torn away a substantial part of the bone and brain before exiting behind the ear. The size of the exit wound, to the untrained eye, gave rise to several myths that endure to this day.”

    sarahmichaelcollins website.


    Did you know that the doctors at Bethesda Naval Hospital missed the exit wound in JFKs throat? The tracheotomy done to him confused them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,397 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Notmything


    Fwiw a "dum dum" bullet will do a lot more than cause a 2in gash as suggested in one of the posts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Some say Collins was going to expose a British plant (code name Thorp) in the Government when he returned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    There were plenty of people who benefitted from his killing. Rumours about moles in government are interesting, although what are you implying if this were true?

    Who was the plant, has this ever been exposed?

    I think it is lazy to assume he was as popular a man as he is made out to be today. Begrudgery was invented long before the Civil war. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. He is sometimes almost beatified as our only martyr, but the reality is that fighting the Brits somehow led us to fighting each other...again. He had his fair share of dissenters on both sides, I would not be as brash to name them, even the ones I have heard. But he stood on many toes to be the boss.

    People forget the nature of the times. The war in Europe resulted in Ireland being flooded with arms, rifles and guns were as common a feature post 1918 as mobiles and lap tops are today. Every second house was armed.

    People underestimate the perception of betrayal felt by Irish people when he compromised over the six counties and the oath of allegiance. He was asking families butchered, burned and raped by the Tans to turn the other cheek. That did not sit well, nationwide, never mind Cork city or county? People were fuming, many were lining up to pull the trigger.

    I would never rule out friendly fire either, not deliberate, but at twilight it would be near impossible shooting into a hill with the sun dropping away. I also always question how he was the only body after the ambush? That armoured shooter should have had a machine gun rattling away in all directions, catch a bullet a centre metre thick off one of those and it is all over. He was mad to leave his car as well, someone reckoned he was jarred, but I think that is an insult.

    The Cork irregulars lured him down there on the promise of talks and killed him. All units were trained to operate in secrecy, the Sonny O'Neill story might be true, but any of them could have done him. I still am astonished he was the only fatality.

    Why did they take the same route home? Sloppy stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Would have been interesting to see Collins live to an old man. Similar to Dev only dieing in 1972. Someone so prominent in the foundation of the state being alive so relatively recently is mad to think, similar to Tom Barry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,757 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Time to move on OP



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach




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  • Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Some Tacky crime style show on RTE

    is this how we celebrate our history now?



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    The centenary of Collins' death was never going to be a celebration.

    In fairness they're trying something different, it's only half way through. See will we hear anything new.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    RTE1 showing Cold Case Collins now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The 'plant' wasn't exposed. It was said that his papers concerning the matter were destroyed either by the plant or thiose in Government that may have wanted him out of the picture.



  • Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Cumhachtach


    The state of Liam Deasy😅

    Cary Elwes!



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    I always reckoned Collins had the charisma, political inclination and temperment to become Irelands version of Franco. He was already making decisions as CIC that the government were having to rubber stamp after the fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Ignacius


    Has anybody said Maggie Simpson yet?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭trashcan


    Some of the dialogue is so cringey. Use of idioms like “ last time I checked” and “We’re done here” so 21st century. Not the way people would have spoken in 1924.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    This is the thing though, he would have had more opportunities to maybe phuck things up even worse?

    It is like everyone thinks Cobain or Bill Hicks were geniuses? They only worked for a few years, nothing to judge them on.

    Seán Lemass kept himself in the game and we should all be grateful, he literally built the country single handed ... with the help of Thomas Kinsella and Tommy Whitaker.

    You can't run a country from your grave.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab




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