Ukrainian refugees in Ireland - Megathread

xxxxxxl · 25-08-2022 2:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518511#Comment_119518511

I will rely on data. You cannot put 100 extra kids in a place that can only have the capacity for 30. Would people not be worried poor children being bussed all over the place say 40 min jurney.

And the funny thing is I used to travel that each way to school on a bus. It even crashed once.

25-08-2022 3:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518337#Comment_119518337

Surely it's just a bit of trolling?????? The part about "from the pet shop / which is nearby" - must be someone having a laugh

One eyed Jack · 25-08-2022 3:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518524#Comment_119518524

No you won’t, you’ll rely on whatever suits you 😂

For example, nowhere has it been suggested that any school take 100 extra children when they only have capacity for 30.

I don’t know what people would be worried about, but I’ve no doubt some people would be worried about poor children being bussed all over the place, whether it’s a 40 minute or 40 mile journey. Most children though, are driven to school by car, with the average time taken to travel to school being just over 10 minutes.

But I don’t expect you to take my word for it, you rely on data, so here’s the data from the Central Statistics Office, figures from 2016, but won’t have changed all that much -

The most popular means of travel to primary school was by car, 6 in 10 travelled to school this way, 1 in 4 students walked and 1 in 10 travelled by bus. Car journeys increased by 10.2 per cent since 2011 and walking by 8.2 per cent, but commuting by bus had decreased by 6.8 per cent.

…

The average travel time for primary students remained unchanged between 2011 and 2016 at 11.6 minutes.

Three quarters of Mayo (75.5%) and Galway County (75.1%) children traveled less than 15 mins to primary school, along with over 72 per cent of children in Roscommon, Clare, Cavan, Tipperary and Wexford. However, for Galway city residents, less than half took less than 15 mins (47.5%) and over 3 in 10 took between 15 minutes and half an hour (32.7%) to get to school, followed by those in Dun Laoghaire (31.7%), Dublin city (31.5%) South Dublin (28.6%) and Kildare (27.1%).

There were 3,640 (0.7%) primary children who took over an hour to travel to school.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6stp/

25-08-2022 8:01am

One Eyed Jack...The pupil teacher ratio is now 24 to 1. Any pupil in a class bigger than that is overscribed and overcrowded. School are under pressure to take in more pupils than they can handle, fact. Schools should be able to say...Ok, we have all our classes full at 24 pupils but they can't and don't. There is no point in looking at statistics from 2016, our Demographics and population has changed and increased exponentially since then. The urban sprawl is now out into what would have been rural areas. Even here in Donegal.

I just do not believe in this explosion of population in such a short space of time! It's crippling our services disgracefully.

25-08-2022 8:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119517612#Comment_119517612

If a family decides to send their child to a school outside of their local one, then it’s only right that they pay. The waiving of bus fees for the coming year is for ALL users. Not just Ukrainians.

mcsean2163 · 25-08-2022 8:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518478#Comment_119518478

What happens if the sky falls down?

Get a hold of yourself suckit...

_Kaiser_ · 25-08-2022 8:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518530#Comment_119518530

You'd hope so, but who knows!

I'm guessing doggo (if he exists) came straight in too though - no need for quarantine, vaccination, chipping or rabies checks?

25-08-2022 8:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518129#Comment_119518129

The spoken language won’t be much of a problem. For older children, the big problem is the written English. Children are resilient and will pick it up easily enough. They won’t have to do Irish at secondary level.

25-08-2022 8:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518221#Comment_119518221

Careful what you wish for. I went onto one Ukrainian Facebook page and got an eyeful of a female’s nether region about to be er, ……. Use your imagination 🙈

25-08-2022 8:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518524#Comment_119518524

No school is being forced to take more than they are comfortable with. No primary school is more than a 10 minute drive away from numerous others, even in rural areas.

blade1 · 25-08-2022 8:32am

What are the Ukrainian refugees doing for doctors?

Every Doctor in my area and well beyond say they are not taking patients since long before this war even started.

Subzero3 · 25-08-2022 8:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518772#Comment_119518772

They have free medical cards so they can walk into those walk in doctor's, or add to the hospital overcrowded.

Boggles · 25-08-2022 8:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518159#Comment_119518159

The "eejit" that claimed that is your employer, the Department of Education.

A Department of Education analysis has identified tens of thousands of spare places in primary and secondary schools....

The net overall reduction in primary enrolments by 2022/23 was projected to be in the order of 25,000 pupils, a Department of Education spokesman said

Maybe send the eejits an email?

Also Clare and Donegal have been struggling to keep schools open

while Clare and Donegal were the areas that saw a largest decrease by 3.4 per cent and 1.9 per cent, respectively.

The pupil teacher ratio is now 24 to 1

The Pupil Teacher Ratio on the other hand has fallen consistently over the same period, from 18.4 in 2001 to 13.7 in 2021.

Boggles · 25-08-2022 9:01am

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/newtwo-year-pilot-projectto-save-small-rural-schools-40606862.html

Small schools in rural areas are a particular feature of the Irish education system, but they have been under increasing threat because of population decline in their communities

The Department of Education defines a small school as one with four mainstream teachers or fewer, which account for almost half of all primary schools.

But while the 1,360 small primary schools make up 44pc of the primary sector, they account for only 14pc of primary pupils

But but but we are full!

EOQRTL · 25-08-2022 9:13am

Speaking to another parent in my daughters school whilst out walking the dog this morning and they aren't paying any school fees this term until they get a handle on class size make up when the kids go back next Monday. She's heard through another parent that the class may have a total of 4 Ukrainian kids in an already over crowded class with 28 pupils. Absolutely raging if this is true as i foolishly have already paid the fees. School is located in D16 area for reference.

Boggles · 25-08-2022 9:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119517416#Comment_119517416

Oh right, so it's not just people on the "dole".

It's a support for people of low income who can get help.

Do you know anyone that ever got their car fixed through it?

TaurenDruid · 25-08-2022 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119517649#Comment_119517649

"Stupid small clerical errors"?

The form literally just asks your name, DOB, any previous names, mother's maiden name, address, and previous addresses and years there. And if you have had any criminal convictions. That's literally it. What sort of "small clerical errors" can you manage to introduce, yourself, in that form three times?!

TaurenDruid · 25-08-2022 9:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119517953#Comment_119517953

"safety" - why the scare quotes, CeCe12?

There's a war. The country was invaded.

a total of 5,587 killed (2,161 men, 1,490 women, 149 girls, and 175 boys, as well as 38 children and 1,574 adults whose sex is yet unknown)
a total of 7,890 injured (1,603 men, 1,190 women, 172 girls, and 236 boys, as well as 202 children and 4,487 adults whose sex is yet unknown)

Most of the civilian casualties recorded were caused by the use of explosive weapons with wide area effects, including shelling from heavy artillery, multiple launch rocket systems, missiles and air strikes.

OHCHR believes that the actual figures are considerably higher, as the receipt of information from some locations where intense hostilities have been going on has been delayed and many reports are still pending corroboration. This concerns, for example, Mariupol (Donetsk region), Izium (Kharkiv region), Lysychansk, Popasna, and Sievierodonetsk (Luhansk region), where there are allegations of numerous civilian casualties. ~ https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/08/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-22-august-2022

That's the reality. The casualty numbers are, according to the UNHCR, underestimated. They don't include the rapes, or the kidnapping of children for "repatriation" to Russia.

So yes. Safety. And no, it's not just the south-east that's being attacked.

25-08-2022 9:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518867#Comment_119518867

It is only fantastic that some pupils are taught in small classes but you do know that we already have one of the highest Pupil:Teacher ratios in the EU which will skew your figures.

The important figure is that 2 out of every 3 pupils are being taught in classes of 25 or more!!! That figure is rising all the time and is in no way conducive to quality teaching and education. FACT!

CeCe12 · 25-08-2022 9:41am

School bus chaos.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0825/1318679-school-transport-access/

CeCe12 · 25-08-2022 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519015#Comment_119519015

Yes I seen all this from you yesterday. Society is functioning in Kyiv. Almost everything is open.

Boggles · 25-08-2022 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519017#Comment_119519017

You are conflating 2 metrics, I just gave you the fact.

The Pupil Teacher Ratio on the other hand has fallen consistently over the same period, from 18.4 in 2001 to 13.7 in 2021.

Ireland has one of the best educational systems in the world, a large part of this is down to the quality of our teachers and the fact that we don't have a high turnover in the profession, largely down to pay and conditions.

Didn't you say yourself you are currently on maternity with full pay?

TaurenDruid · 25-08-2022 9:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518196#Comment_119518196

The reasoning no longer makes sense - a Ukrainian mayor has recalled his people, football teams are playing matches again, fast food places are reopening, hotels are taking bookings, and diplomats, politicians and celebrities have been making very public visits.

So we believe politicians 100% all of the time and they have no agenda? Grand. It was the mayor of Kyiv. Kyiv also banned public gatherings and celebrations for their independence day because of fears of attacks, and citizens were urged to pay attention to warning sirens. The football league re-started but with some teams not participating. Diplomats and politicians have been making public visits since a couple of weeks into this.

Yes, things seem to be 'stabilising', for want of a better term, as neither side seems to be able to push the other out, but the situation can hardly be described as normal in any way, shape, or form. It's perfectly natural that people would follow and reunite with their families who did manage (or have to) get out early.

22 to 25 killed yesterday, with a rocket attack on a railway station in the east, and another rocket attack on an area north of Kyiv yesterday (Isn't Kyiv supposed to be a "safe" area now?) ~ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-girds-more-violence-independence-day-wars-six-month-mark-2022-08-23/

TaurenDruid · 25-08-2022 9:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518330#Comment_119518330

Talk about clutching at straws!

They will, of course, be taught the Irish syllabus, the same as... *checks notes*... every other kid in Ireland.

TaurenDruid · 25-08-2022 9:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519017#Comment_119519017

That figure is a lot smaller than when my kids were in primary school, and a hell of a lot smaller than when I was in primary school! FACT!

TaurenDruid · 25-08-2022 10:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519028#Comment_119519028

You may have seen it, you just don't seem to be able to process it. Or you wouldn't be using the scare quotes around "safety". Another 22 to 25 killed yesterday, including one in the "safe" area north of Kyiv.

25-08-2022 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518741#Comment_119518741

I have no idea what your experience of teaching is, but you have a very strange comprehension of learning and acquisition when it comes to children. The English language is difficult, for those whose Alphabet and grammar is so different. Slavic languages are extremely different to English, and the idea that children are going to easily pick up enough English to be on par with native kids is ridiculous.

They won't have to learn Irish, but they will have to understand the nuances in English that are so important. We take them for granted because it's our primary language, but the learning of English in Ukraine is similar to the learning of Irish here. We do it because we have no choice, and in reality, few retain enough practical Irish to be of much use beyond examinations with very limited scope. Standardised testing is pretty common in most countries, so what Ukrainian children will already know of English will be very limited, and likely flawed (Ukrainian teachers will have limited use for English themselves, and the standard drops considerably over time). [and then there's the confusion involved between learning British/American English, and adopting all that to the Irish use of English which often isn't the same thing]

Then, there's the need to quickly acquire English for common day usage, without dedicated services to provide that knowledge. Standard TEFL/ESL teaching is not going to cut it, because the complexities of using English in school is far greater than what is provided, and the resource of time needed to provide that knowledge. Especially since they will be using Slavic languages at home, and English in schools.. Never mind the possibilities of children being traumatised from the war, the sudden move to Ireland or simply the wide range of issues that normally exist for children.

This whole idea of thrusting Ukrainian children into Irish schools without extensive preparation is short-sighted and is going to cause serious problems for teachers.

For the last few weeks, I've been hearing radio reports from the various teaching and disability organisations talking about dealing with the after effects of the covid period, the lack of resources for students, etc. And that's just about Irish children. But, it'll be all roses for the Ukrainian children who are entered into those schools, and the Irish children aren't going to be negatively affected by the extra workload or distractions placed on their teachers.

It's ridiculous.

jyat · 25-08-2022 10:07am

The country will be busy with 20-30k more migrants by end of 2022.

Boggles · 25-08-2022 10:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519139#Comment_119519139

They teach English in Ukrainian schools and from my experience the kids have a decent grasp of it, something which has come on leaps and bounds in a mere few months.

They would actually be the main translators for parents and grand parents.

Their proficiency will only increase with the interaction with their peers, the only real way to learn a language in my opinion.

25-08-2022 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519180#Comment_119519180

I already said that they teach English in Ukrainian schools. I commented on the low quality of that teaching considering the drop in quality by teachers who have no way to keep their own English "fresh". This is common in any country where English is not commonly used. Besides the general lack of interest in English by kids who wouldn't have been using it much external to the schools (in Ukraine), which severely limits retention, and flexibility.

As for the rest, they need to have English that is on par with native English speakers for them to be able to follow classes, and participate... to the extent that they are not holding the class back or becoming isolated due to their lack of ability. Both of which places strain on the teachers, especially if those Ukrainian students resent the pressure they're being put under.

The issue isn't that their English will/won't improve. The issue is their ability to exist in a classroom where the majority of other students are Irish. You seem to want to ignore these realities. If they were in a classroom with only other Ukrainians taught by Ukrainian teachers, I doubt anyone would have a problem, but that's not the case.

Ukrainian refugees in Ireland - Megathread

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