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Scottish independence

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Orkney and Shetland is LibDem because of Joe Grimmond - long since departed, but still remembered.

    There are various ways to become relevant, but you need to win a legal battle, or become the king maker, or start a revolution.

    They are trying the first one, bitterly opposed by the Tory Gov. The Gov do not always win in the Supreme court.

    The next election might gift them the second one. Labour might be prepared to give it a go, but add a bit of constitutional reform.

    Let us hope the third option does not become the only way left. That could get very nasty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,594 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Tuesday, the 16th, is set to be the Tory hustings in Scotland. Perth appears to be where it will be held but it seems they are keeping the venue a closely guarded secret to avoid any bad reception. It will be interesting if pro-independence supporters are able to get wind of it. There's bound to be more questions on independence.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Perth - is that a bit far north for Tories? I thought they were all in the border constituencies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives


    The Scottish people had their referendum and they voted to stay. That's that. Nicola Sturgeon can put it to them as many times as she likes but the Scots aren't stupid. They know that Scotland can't fund it's own health service, social housing and social welfare, among many other things. It's like the idea of a united Ireland, all very well until you put the financial realities to people and then they say feck that. Oh, publicly they'll support it, privately in a ballot box they'll reject it. The SNP is a one trick pony party, united Scotland first, everything else second.

    Post edited by Quin_Dub on


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,846 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    'So confident are we that Referendums in both jurisdictions won't pass we will keep blocking or denying them' doen't exactly indicate genuine confidence that the 'Union' would survive.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Well you are at least right about one thing, the Scottish people are not stupid and this time around the argument about staying in the EU won't fly, but all the BREXIT BS that has come out since will stick.

    And EU membership or EFTA, which is more likely, favours small countries, they all do very well out of have preferential access to a large wealth market. And your financial reality is just a delusion, there is no factual reason why Scotland can't finance their economy nor Ireland for that matter. For example, Ireland reduced it's debt per capita from 124% down to about 80% pre pandemic, in line with Germany and ahead of the likes of the UK and France and most people did not even notice it happening.

    And the Scottish voters have been reelecting the SNP for a long time now, so event the one trick BS is just that.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    People voted to stay in the Union. Some voted to stay in the UK , some the EU, some both. It cannot be overstressed that one of the other parts of the UK won't have to wait more than seven years between votes if conditions change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,594 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Frost has turned his attention on Scotland in his latest article.

    Striking bit is this sentence: 'we need to act. The devolution settlement is not written in stone. It has evolved – all in one direction – since 1999. It can evolve back, too.'

    He goes on to suggest another referendum should only happen if '75 per cent of seats in the Scottish Parliament in favour of independence, over a 10-year period, legally binding.'

    This paragraph is also ominous considering he is someone being talked up as possibly having a key role under Truss:

    '‘Westminister politicians invariably say they want a “constructive relationship” with the Scottish government. The new UK government must realise the relationship is only constructive when it is doing what the SNP wants. In the current institutional set-up, a constructive relationship is a sign of failure. Instead, we need disagreement, vigorous argument, and consistent political challenge to the SNP world-view. That’s what we need to see – because that’s what’s needed to save the country.’

    So Frost is advocating undermining devolution, 'disagreement', and an adversarial relationship with the Scottish government. I don't see how that is going to win over the middle ground who will be necessary to keep Scotland in the Union. If the UK government adopt this approach, it looks like a massive own goal in the making. Sturgeon responded to his piece:

    If a Truss government seeks to 'evolve back' devolution as Frost is pushing for, might that be the moment that tips the balance firmly in favour of independence?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,501 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Erode devolution? With sudden direct control from Tories?

    Jesus. This waste of skin is proposing a removal of democracy. Why not just give them independence instead of dithering blindly into forcing the Scots' hand.

    Frost is an idiot. Speaking to what I presume is an English Telegraph audience; but even that shows what anglocentric hubris runs the Union. Scotland is better off gone at this stage. The union had it's time.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Is that not the story of the first 50 years of Unionist control of NI?

    That is a call for armed insurrection in Scotland if they roll back devolution.

    He is truly a crackpot if he actually believes this rot. Note he has never been elected to a political position.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,594 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    GB News weren't around during the last referendum. Judging by these comments, they might well be a gift to the pro-independence side in the coming years:




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,501 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    So much for women supporting other women. I sometimes cannot quite fathom what some English have against Sturgeon that they seem so angry about her. Are their egos that brittle they can't deal with the Scots debating a national issue with some sobriety of purpose?

    Not like people don't get incensed about politicians of any stripe, but Sturgeon seems to attract an especially hostile, visceral reaction from some quarters that borders on mania. Aside from the independence question, she has always struck as a fairly competent leader. Nothing especially controversial, incompetent or problematic.

    Mind you, it is GB News and the first reference to them I've witnessed in months; so not surprising they're practically rabid about her.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    That went out on their OFFICIAL Twitter?

    Good Christ.

    "They have sex with their brothers and sisters"

    The absolute state of that channel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,958 ✭✭✭circadian


    Pure spite. They have nothing to debate with against the points being made by the Scottish population. Their own government is in a state and they decide to attack another within the union, one that is doing quite well and moving further away in both a social and political sense.


    This is total shocked Pikachu meme territory. Celebrating the potential of anrat infestation in Scotland then wondering why they want to leave the union.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,501 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    You may have missed the Current Affairs thread where one or two notable posters defended it with zeal, this great bulwark against wokism and some stirring example of truth telling and Conservative truth. Certainly of this is the calibre of their continued operation they should broadcast it in Scotland round the clock, emphasise where some see Edinburgh within the UK "family".

    At this rate certain anglocentric voices will be raging and baffled right up to the point the Union flag is lowered from Holyrood. It's embarrassing how utterly lacking in empathy or the basic meeting of minds halfway. It's like Sturgeon is some money voice rabbiting away - as opposed to the democratically elected leader of a country, of which about half (and growing?) share Sturgeon's view.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,728 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    At its zenith, that grubby little channel had barely any viewers. Therefore, it has to keep ratcheting up the two minutes of hate to keep whatever those with nothing better to do with their lives watching it. Getting gleeful that Scotland's rat population might get out of control is just par for the course. Launching a bastion against wokeism is like defecating in an overflowing cultural slurry pit at this stage.

    Sturgeon is a democratically-elected leader with an actual mandate from the population she represents. She's intelligent, capable and personable. The Conservatives by contrast can only govern by deceit, corruption and cruelty. They know they have no real argument in their desperate attempts to placate some of the worst people in the UK as opposed to actually governing.

    It's the same with Northern Ireland. You can't have a competent devolved government on your doorstep hence the insistent attempts to undermine the GFA and the NI protocol. It's the ultimate whataboutery. Turn the whole place into a cesspit and nobody will notice how bad the leaders are. It's a strategy that's thankfully failing spectacularly.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,594 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Latest Ipsos Scotland poll has some interesting results.




    I would have expected higher support for the proposal to use the general election as an independence vote. Perhaps opinions will change if the courts rule against the Scottish government having the right to call a referendum, as most seem to think will be the case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,657 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I find the economic argument against independence (Table 3) a really strange one. Virtually no country that became independent in Europe in the last 30 years (and there have been a lot of them) paid any attention to the economic situation when deciding to go for independence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    That is absolutely appalling.

    Imagine we were part of the UK and being spoken about in the media like that.

    I used to be at best neutral on Scottish independence but I'm actually reaching the point now where I hope Scottish voters grow a pair and go their own way.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Bringing the economic prospects of an independent Scotland as a major issue is a straw man argument. Economies are subject to vagaries and can change course in an instant due to international issues outside of any nations control. The last few years should be a lesson to all.

    In the IndyRef, the price of oil was low, and predicted to go lower, and oil was seen as crucial to the Scottish economy. Now oil and gas are high, but wind energy, particularly offshore, is proving to be a nice little earner, which was not seen in 2014.

    They were told that they would not be permitted to use the GB£ as their currency - which of course is nonsense as they could peg the Scottish Haggis currency to any international currency they choose, or even a basket of currencies as many independent nations do, usually based on trading mix. Being tied to the GB£ could be a disaster if a tax cutting, kleptocratic chumocracy, utterly corrupt, Tory Gov were to take control of the UK.

    Another issue was the prospect of Scotland being kicked out of the EU if they voted for independence, but they voted YES so they could remain, but got kicked out of the EU even though Scotland voted to remain. Currently, Scotland's interests are being totally ignored by Westminster, even to the extent of the Tory Gov preventing Scottish MPs talking on Scottish bills.

    The basic argument the pro independence side should put, and no other argument should be necessary, is that an independent Scotland will decide all issues to favour Scottish interests as determined by Scottish voters and Scottish politicians. Who could argue against that?

    Their cry should be - LET SCOTLAND DECIDE.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,501 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    If independence was purely about economics and nothing else, we'd still be in the Union. Simple as. We brought ruin to ourselves for decades until we started to assert some semblance of planning



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,657 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Which was probably even understood by many at the time. I find it quite baffling that a country going for independence would base their decision on whether it was economically viable or not. It would be like a man pondering whether to divorce his wife or stay with her for the rest of his life going through his bank account to check on how it would impact on his finances and solely basing his decision on that.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think a lot of second and later wives of very wealthy American men do precisely that - and intend taking 50% of his wealth with them.

    However, most people do not make that kind of decision of a financial basis, and nations should not be forced into populist decisions.

    .



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,501 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    It would actually make for an interesting point of research: successful independence movements whose primary pillar of decoupling was based purely in economics. Maybe America, at a pinch? But even that quickly became one of self-determination rather than "the taxes are too high, who needs all this tea anyway?". Eventually the heart has to drive the decision to pick up a gun, take to give streets with a placard, or tick a ballot paper. Independence is inherently emotional because the nation-state is a deliberate, emotional construct based on fuzzy lines on a map.

    I would be bullish enough to go further and suggest it's deeply arrogant and patronising for other nationalities, especially those a century removed from their own independence movement, to wax intellectual about what should or shouldn't be a driver when pushing for nationhood.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    India was led to independence by Ghandi - a pacifist who succeeded through peaceful means. However the appalling partition of India led to huge population movements, and many many deaths, including Ghandi's. Economics was far from Ghandi's mind.

    Kenya and most British colonies fought for independence for generations, and economics was far from the minds of those who led the fight.

    Perhaps Hong Kong was not fought over economics - perhaps, but China is a big adversary.

    We know why we fought for Independence, and for how long. Economics had nothing to do with our fight.

    Perhaps South Africa is the exception, but that was really because of race and Apartheid.

    So it is the heart, national pride and preservation of their culture that will drive independence movements - always has.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    So it is the heart, national pride and preservation of their culture that will drive independence movements - always has.

    So the question I have is how applicable to modern day Scotland is the above?

    Because they need it to be applicable to get a majority to vote for independence



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    They have a rugby team, a football team, a football league, a national anthem, a devolved assembly, a different and readily identifiable culture involving the kilt, haggis, highland games, Scottish dancing, their own still living Gallic language - what more do they need. They have their own legal system that is apart from that of England, and their own bank notes.

    The local accent changes as soon as the border is crossed - no blended transition. There is no doubt that when you are in Scotland, you know you are in Scotland.

    It is getting the Scots to believe that they alone, through their votes and their politicians elected by their votes, are the only ones to be trusted to decide matters for Scotland.

    Not give way to an Anglo centric corrupt Tory Westminster Gov that holds them in contempt - only fit to be ignored as not being worthy to be even considered.

    How could a true Scot argue with themselves having control over their own lives?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,657 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The 'Scottish unionist' crowd are a really strange bunch. I've seen numerous ones on social media arguing vehemently that Scotland is not a real country and is merely a British region. They almost sound more hardcore and ideological than the DUP in Northern Ireland.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    But what percentage are these 'Scottish' unionists - or are they merely the English migrants who have moved north? Even the British Gov refers to Scotland as a country - and if the Tory Gov does, it must be true.

    If the polls are to be believed, there is a better than 50% who want independence, and quite a few of the rest could be open to be persuaded if the right campaign is conducted leading to a referendum.

    Truss thinks they should be ignored and no-way will a referendum be allowed. The Tory Gov actively ignores them by denying them speaking time on Scottish bills.

    How stupid are these Scottish Unionists? And how stupid are the rest of the Scottish people to give them any time to deny them their right to self determination?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Not withstanding Frost and his rabmlings in a Tory newspaper none of what you describe above as being part of the Scottish identity is under threat.

    And the Anglo centric corrupt Westminster Tory government you talk about could be gone in a few years given the way they are going.

    So what will drive independence if the culture is not under threat?



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