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Can Sinn Fein fix the housing crisis or is it beyond them or anybody else?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭dasa29


    Will you give it a rest. while FF(9) and FG(8) had more councilors combined at 17 that SF(16) true.

    The total councilors in the DCC is 63 councilors so 32 councilors are needed for a majority.

    The truth is SF(16), Lab(8), Greens(3) and 11 Independents which is a total of 38 councilors ran the DCC Council 2014 - 2019



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Sinn Fein will certainly not and never be able to solve the housing crisis. However Sinn Fein was the only political party which took the issue serious.

    This should give you an idea how easy it would be to solve.

    Any market is a supply and demand issue, and there isn't any decent supply.

    Also, if you get politics involved, you will certainly never ever get properties, people will be proud owning.

    I'd say, two rather harsh things:

    1) It will take another crisis, another recession to solve the housing crisis. The likelihood of another crisis making housing more affordable is higher than politics being able to do something.

    2) Those who are well enough educated, have a place in the labour market, and still can't afford to buy anything decent in Ireland will have to think about emigrating.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    The excuse was FF/FG was working together to block SF. Except the poster forgot the confidence and supply agreement between FF and FG was in 2016.

    Article is here because the one Sinn Fein had on their website was deleted for some reason


    Edit I see below now it was all parties fighting against poor old SF in DCC. 🤣 the lies get more and more outlandish by the day now. The funny part is now all parties went up against SF because they never realised the local and general elections are on at different times 🤦‍♂️

    if the below was true why did we get multiple different excuses to the latest

    Grasping at straw to cover up for a terrible party!!!

    Post edited by brokenangel on


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Until we break the power swap there will be no change.

    It's as simple as that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I see the problem differently.

    It's mainly a structural and economical issue in Ireland.

    Back in 2008 the government bailed out the banks, and that included all that subprime lending all the mortgages.

    This meant that the government was sitting on negative equity as well.

    The only solution to that, was to build way less, and with increased demand in a recovering economy, and little supply property values would go up again, and negative equity won't be an issue anymore. It was easy to do, many construction companies were bankrupt anyway.

    Now you have exactly that, no negative equity, high prices due to lack of supply and strong demand.

    Those in their 30ies who want to buy have to bear the brunt of this and if they don't like it, emigration is the only choice.

    Those older, who bought before 2008 are happy that they are not in negative equity anymore.

    This will last as long as demand is strong. A recession or way higher interest rates would bring high prices to a halt at some point, it's certainly going to happen sooner than any government's plan to build more houses and increase supply.



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  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In theory NAMA was to be the bad bank,and not be in negative equity,hence why it gotten a 70% haircut on loans pre-transfer to it....the notion state was holding negative equity on loanbooks/asset sheet deosnt stackup.....they may be holding negative equity entities in the banks,which eventually crystallised losses over 2 years


    but likely won't ever offload banks,as there is a reasonable value in state ownership of these and underpinning essential services,(should have set up banks,and not bailed em out imo though)


    (Your anyslsis as it being policies persued landing us here would be generally accepted,just the motivation of parties was likely on a more personal level Vs worried about state holding bad debt)





    As an aside,there will end up eventually be a tribunal into many of NAMA dealings,it gives me no pleasure to say this,with a fellow countryman running it



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,890 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Looks like the Tom McFeely types are everywhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    I think you need to have lived and worked during the crash to understand what happened


    First off our population growth was over 2% year on year up till end of 2009 and dropped below 1% till after 2015. Hence why I mention 2014-2019 was critical for housing earlier. Plus we slowed building because we didn’t need them with such low population growth

    But anyway on NAMA, we ended up with huge loans and mortgage nobody could pay. The banks could not take the negative equity and nobody wanted these houses. Nobody.

    No government was driving up the prices, you had fire sales more or less in RDS trying to sell houses to anyone who had a few quid in back pocket. It wasn’t increasing the prices, it was buying a house for 50k in estate while next door the person had a 300k mortgage to pay.

    Entire housing estates been bulldozed in town and villages, do you know why? Well the people wanted them knocked down because they would never be lived in. I said at the time it was stupid but that’s what they wanted. Joe Duffy and the like with people on complaining about the empty houses and they should be knocked down

    Trying to pass off the people that lived during teh crash are the lucky ones????F**k me you haven’t a clue.

    What should of happened was circa 2016 when the recovery started, thanks to all the people working their arses off!!!! They should have started to build. Again I use DCC as an example, at the end of 2019 they should of had 10k more unit than 2014 because of the population growth, especially in Dublin, but had 1300 less. That’s a f**king disgrace.

    Then 2020 covid hit and sites shut down, that’s the back log.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I honestly don't believe that politicians and political parties are able to solve problems, they are more likely to create them. Which party is more or less likely, is another subject of possible disagreement.... In these regards, I would see the SF on the left, at least they have understanding for the problem, but can they solve it, certainly not. Apart from that certain people would never ever consider SF at all.

    Regarding bad banks, NAMA, and the whole current housing crisis, in a nutshell, I think it's a market in which from 2008 / 2009 until now supply has been deliberately and artificially limited to have a natural higher demand in a recovering economy. And rising prices solve the negative equity issue.

    Thus the country's housing crisis is where it is.

    Ultimately, if we have young people who want to focus on academic studies but can't find rooms to stay and study focused in, the country will have a problem. The risk is there to lose a whole generation seeking fortunes elsewhere. I am surprised about these long and endless queues, just to view a single room, with very limited hopes of being successful.

    Same goes for all the multinational companies operating in Ireland. Who wants a highly demanding and skilled job, but live in shared housing with a bunch of strangers? The result is, nobody stays long, hiring and leaving in a year or two.

    Recruitment agencies like Giligan Black, Sigmar Recruiting or CPL Recruiting catering for those American multinationals are the only lucky ones profiting from this as their hiring goes on and on..... They only tend to run out of possible candidates, especially if it's known that one needs to pay 1200 to 1500 per month for just a room with an en-suite in a city like Dublin, for that you can rent a 2 bedroom in Frankfurt or Munich and get a similarly demanding job with a reputable company.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    The solution to the housing crisis requires radical action. The thing is it's an emergency yet it's not treated like one.

    Here's some off the top of my head ideas.

    • Highly restrict non EEA immigration for an initial period of 5 years.
    • Restrict non essential construction. Hotels? Ban them. Get as many construction workers building residential as possible.
    • Any new MNC expansions (new jobs) require the company to build/finance properties to house the new workers
    • Go to Canada/Oz where the housing market is tanking and entice construction workers to come here. Supply them with accommodation.
    • Department of housing gets direct power over housing. Increase max height regs to 20 stories and build high rise in certain parts of Dublin. Also build high rise in growing cities. You could identify 50 locations where you could build high rise housing 1k people. Places such as Navan, Athlone, Sligo, Castlebar, Dundalk, Drogheda, Naas and similar.
    • Remove the 25 year lease deals currently being signed.
    • Vacant property tax. Any registered property (non primary propert) not having a tax return or RTB registration gets a 10% tax on the value of the property each year.
    • Any small landlord who provides 10 year+ lease + no rent increase gets tax break at the end of 10 years.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    C'mon. You're being silly now. Seems to me you've no problem with housing, just hate shinners. Fair enough, but be honest at least.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Jesus, you are clutching at straws and ignoring the facts. SF didn't run DCC. You are suggesting every party not FF/FG, combined together on every issue to retroactively decide to demolish social housing units. Not forgetting Labour had been in coalition with FG and the Greens later were too. So hardly staunch shinner followers. Give over and accept FF/FG are an unmittedgated national record breaking disgrace and I don't really care who replaces them so keep your shinner FF/FG pissing contest to yourself. Housing is an absolute disgrace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I'd agree it requires radical action, but what you're suggesting isn't quite it.

    Limiting immigration from non EEC countries is tricky. Many of the jobs in construction are done by people from outside the EEC. Not even the Polish want to work in this industry anymore.

    Canada's housing market is tanking because, it's been growing like Ireland pre-2008. Now the Bank of Canada decided to raise interest rates to curb inflation, - thus the impact on mortgages. The EZB may move in a similar direction, but that might take some time.

    A vacant property tax leads nowhere. First you'd have to assess who is staying where how long, leading to a massive surveillance of citizens. Not even in London they do that, and renting in zone 3 is easier and even cheaper than anywhere Dublin these days.

    I also wouldn't restrict hotels, they are part of tourism, an industry which needs to recover and grow especially after the pandemic.

    The lack of high rise is also a bit surprising, especially in cities like Dublin. Every time it seems to take ages to get them formally approved and then there are also voices not wanting high rises at all. I'd say, certain areas can identified in any city without destroying the original charme of the city.

    Take a look at Manchester, - as far as I know they recently approved 4 high rise towers, real high rises, not tree stumps calling themselves tower like one in Dublin does......

    I'd say the only decent answer is to simply build more units, and units people can be proud of owning.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Davis Old-fashioned Guano


    All SF have to do is allow planning permissions on modular homes. Then build more factories that can build these modular homes. These modular homes can be turned out very quickly, and most of the work would be automated by machines. The current goverment dont want to do it because it will undermine the value of the current housing stock. In order for Ireland and the banks to be rich the house prices must stay high, since most of the investments are based on housing. Only the current goverment would think of making a house a scarce resouce, on something so basic thats needed for a person to live with integrity. No they got to take us back to how we lived under british rule where we own nothing and the odd landlord charges sex for rent. Its simple exploitation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's an excellent description regarding the fact that house prices have to stay artificially high as too much depends on it. And, yes, I am aware of the sex for rent issues in Dublin and I am also aware that they are downplayed all the time.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Non-EEA immigration gives us quite a few medical and IT personnel.

    We are short of hotels and that affects the tourism industry.

    Not sure how you imagine you force MNCs to build housing. Some of them can have a very small presence here.

    NIMBYism tends to stymie the building of taller accommodation so how do you plan to fix that?

    Cancelling a lease deal would cost the State an awful lot of money.

    I agree that the vacant property tax is not being used aggressively enough but that's a council thing. The rest of this is Revenue or the RTB and apart from maybe the asset value why would they be involved?

    Multi-year leases on private residential properties are not possible, I believe. Someone told me that it was a stamp duty issue but not sure on that. No landlord anywhere would ever agree to a 10 year deal, never mind one with no increase.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think the LPT is enough tax on properties. We don't need a vacant home tax. Too much admin work on the bureaucrats, to much surveillance on home owners when one is home or when one isn't and coercion to rent out.

    London doesn't have a vacant home tax either. And empty homes in London only concerns houses and apartments of the super super rich from overseas, - but if they were rented out, I doubt any of us could afford to pay the rent anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Plus the vacant property tax, nobody has any idea what the result will be. Some vague number of houses based on the census but nothing more.

    Plus a huge number of those houses vacant are in the countryside which nobody want to move to and never will move to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    You can hand over a property to the likes of DCC and they will run it for you for 10 years or so. Well you used to be so I expect it is still available.

    Apart from that signing a 10 year lease to someone means you are more or less handing over your house for the rest of the person life. They could sit in it for years and never pay rent and the court would never throw them out.

    Tenants complain about not having multi year lease yet they want to stop the ability of a landlord getting rid of them. I again go back to the case here when a person went on travels for 12 months, came home and the tenant refused to move out. So they ended up paying thousands in legal fee to go to court to get their own home back. How is that right?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Poster said, ‘who knows, FG or Ff COULD have been but one thing id absolutely concrete - they were involved, either approving or blocking.

    You ‘the expert’ weren’t able to say



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Gas objection really. A vacant property tax has no downsides unless you are sitting on vacant property. Instigate it and see what can be brought in or if it encourages building.

    After this cam up the other day I counted vacant buildings on my main street- 13 buildings in one small town.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Another tax doesn't solve anything other than it satisfies the left of society in their consciousness, but other than that, no results. Also there is the question, when a home is actually vacant. Suppose you want to sell, but can't find a buyer that quickly, it would be ridiculous to collect another tax in the meantime.

    The arguments would start flaring up even more, on the debate, when a vacant home is really classified as vacant? Just longer absences, even overseas, on a professional basis? Return to the property every 3 to 4 weeks due to your job's travel requirements?

    Also, it's hard to punish homeowners with another tax because supply is so low which is clearly not the current home owners responsibility or fault.

    I think the ultimate answer isn't a tax, but just building more. Markets are supply and demand, not tax. There is so much empty land, in North County Dublin where one could build decent houses, create communities like Clontarf or Castlenock, and not something shabby.

    On a political spectrum I suggest the SF understands there is a problem, but doesn't know how to fix it. They have the vague idea that the solution is most likely a tax, but will face not only opposition to this idea, but also will find the implementation impossible and unpractical. The FG understands there is a little challenge, but doesn't want to address it. And the FF would think there is no problem at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Sorry, not buying the reasons not to tax.

    There are exemptions to the property tax as long as you can prove them. Same can apply.

    Sitting on property is an issue and needs addressing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Are these the ones with a best before date? I like the concept but you have to look at who you are dealing with. Ireland is not like most countries. We have people in houses and apartments that are crumbling or found to flout safely regulations. We treat the victims as pariah while kissing the arse of the industry responsible. What will happen is some crony would get the contract, farm it out to some side company and it will likely end up with delays and costing more than envisaged. Its sad, but that's how they roll.

    You're right. There's a reason why a lot of them are landlords and overly friendly with investment funds who pay lower taxes and why they maintain a crisis, money.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I would be strongly opposed to any form of vacant home tax.

    If somebody doesn't want to rent out, this needs to be respected. Owning a home is a right, and what you're doing with it is yours alone and should not be up to penal taxes on how you're using it, just because in Ireland they are unable to build more.

    Also, as you said, there are exemptions, but even on exemptions opinions will differ greatly. When is an exemption accepted? When not? Who decides on those exemptions? Also there will be bureaucracy attached to that, deadlines on when to respond to whatever demand the bureaucrats set, together will another set of fines and penal taxes for not meeting that deadline, - all unacceptable.

    As you can see, we disagree strongly already. Another tax will not solve anything. It will only produce arguments and clashes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    He ignored his own article were the number were fewer due to FF's regeneration of demolishing 100% social housing complexes and replacing them with private apartments with 10% social, for fun or brown envelopes, who can say? Now we are to believe the discussion hangs on if SF controlled DCC during a four year period several years ago. Its kinda desperate. All while ignoring what FF/FG did and do. I do not believe every party not FF/FG would bow to SF at council or national level, but either way, its a poor deflection tactic, well worn and pathetic.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Those with skin in the game will always object



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    There's approximately 20/30k net immigration from non EEA countries on average each year. Not that many work in the construction industry. Most are students learning english who come here initially on 2 year visa's. But you could make it similar to the J1, only grant a visa if they have a job lined up with a construction firm.

    See, there's the problem. "what about the tourism". Housing is an emergency. Our people have nowhere to live and if they do they're paying huge money each month. Housing is the no.1 issue in this country. If we solve the housing issue at the expense of tourism or parts of the economy, I am fine with that. What good are jobs when all your money is spent on rent and you'll never own your own place?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    How is it a 'home' if you aren't living in it? If you have reason, you can apply for an exemption. Simple



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    He's all over the shop and knows it and runs from questions and just keeps repeating bogus non contextualised info.



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