Collins Centenary Setpiece

markodaly · 23-08-2022 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510041#Comment_119510041

You made the same point about continuing the fight here,

Eh, that was not me. Not sure why you want to shoehorn in Sabina Higgins here and Ukraine. However, if you want to go down that road, if there was a stalemate in the North from 1971, then why did the PIRA continue to fight?

P.S. Not going near the 'RA of the modern era stuff anymore. Off topic. Open a thread, no probs discussing and providing the source material that equality and an end to discrimination was part and parcel of what SF were trying to achieve and was not an add-on or after thought.

because you don't have a leg to stand on.

23-08-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510041#Comment_119510041

I think you have an interesting point about the parallels between the Coyne logic and that of not facing the threatened war by the UK in Dec 1921.

If you are facing annihilation whether you surrender or not you may as well go down fighting. Was that what Britain could have attempted in 1921? Some unionists north and south were well up for it. I don’t think that would have been tolerated by ordinary Brits and certainly not by the USA. It’s a hard cold judgement call.

The treaty team made it, the Dáil made it, the people made it. ( I think you will have figured out that I know that the peoples verdict is problematic to many). The tragedy is that we left northern nationalists at the mercy of a group who should have been controlled by Britain. It is that legacy of felt betrayal that we will not face down here.

There is no reconciliation without truth telling. SF don’t like facing the truth of the deaths of innocents. Unionism can’t face its roots in terrorism, colonialism and anti democratic action. FG can’t face the truth of the civil war 77, the quasi fascism of its foundation and FF can’t face that what SF now is it once was.

The moral high ground is only occupied by the deluded.

Bass Reeves · 23-08-2022 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510205#Comment_119510205

The Anti-treaty IRA had three main demands

No Partition of the Island

No Oath

An Irish Republic

None of these aims were achievable in 2021. Negotiators mainly Collins and Griffiths wanted to break on the Oath to give them an opportunity to return to Ireland to present what they had got. However a slip in negotiations by Burton I think allowed the British to break on empire.

The choices of the delegates then was to call what many think was the English's bluff. Put this in the context that just before the shelling of the Four courts the British send an instruction to the remaining British Army based in Ireland to attack the FC's. The head of the British army in Ireland having a better grasp of the situation delayed the deployment.

Going back to war in December 1921 was not an option. The BA could put faces on 90% of the fighters, there active sympathisers and there families. Even though we had managed to import some new arms and ammunitions we had nowhere near enough to sustain a new war for any longer than mid/late summer 2022. All the active leaders would be killed or lifted within 2-4 weeks.

The treaty was overwhelming approved by the Irish general population there was no ambiguity about it. Even though MC for unity purposes tried to have a joint SF election the results were clear cut. All historians agree on that. When voting the population voted out about half the Anti-treaty candidates replacing them with Labour and Farmer's party candidates who were all for the treaty.

The government was legally elected and was entitled to pass legislation. On the 77 executions there was actually 81 another four were excecuted for criminal activity. Only four were technically illegal. Those four were O'Connor, McKelvey, Mellows and Barrett. These were all captured before the legislation was passed and were a direct reprisal for the assassination of Sean Hales.

The main issue in the CW was even when it had lost the Anti- Treaty forces were unwilling to submit to the lawful authority of the civil government.

There were murders and atrocities carried out by the army and there is no record of these being authorized by the civil government.

23-08-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509960#Comment_119509960

That’s not the point at all. The FG imaginary trump card is that only they can dictate what is the appropriate vision for the country. If you read what was written you would see that it is an attack on the home rule vision which is the hallmark of modern FG.

And about this “Irish” card that FG trot out every so often. I don’t see the relevance. There were many Irish who supported the union because they benefitted financially from it and belittled those who didn’t. The landlord class had its fair share of Castle Catholics. The Shelbourne Hotel was owned and developed by a prominent Irish Catholic. There were Irish who fought for empire. There were Anglo Irish who fought for empire. And so on.

For FG it seems being Irish is something to be evacuated of meaning. Or left as anodyne as they deem acceptable. You don’t get to dictate. If we could hear it equally as often that being English, being unionist, being French is something to be evacuated of meaning from FG I might be able to say that at least your consistent. But you’re not. The bigotry oozes out.

And finally “Point of order” is the bombastic giveaway. Slow down and think a bit more.

23-08-2022 3:29pm

The thread wanders off and it might now need another branch which has probably been ventilated here before. I’m setting one up around The topic of what it means to be (insert identity here) to include as many takes as possible from non Irish contributors.

gormdubhgorm · 23-08-2022 11:08pm

Moving away from the arguments of ABC, EFG, XYZ party - political posters arguing over their rights to claim a dead man.

Can someone explain to me why there is such a cult/myth like status Collins is given? There was even an elderly woman in Cork on the news saying ‘We always had a picture of Collins beside the sacred heart and the Pope!’

I thought to myself that is JFK status stuff. More than human , almost deification.

Yet Collins contemporary of the same political leaning - Arthur Griffith is an afterthought. His funeral only really noteworthy because of the last pictures of Collins!

I even remember reading the Gay community have viewed Collins as a Gay icon for some reason. So he seems to adored from all sides - from elderly auld wans to Gay fellas.

Yet poor auld Griffith is a mere footnote to Collins, to many. Despite Griffith’s many achievements and thoughtful ideas he had.

Was Griffith’s just too academic to be given a mythological halo? Or was he just unfortunate to have died just before a soon to be deified ‘hero’?

brokenangel · 23-08-2022 11:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513090#Comment_119513090

You not see the film?

Bass Reeves · 24-08-2022 12:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513090#Comment_119513090

In every other revolution that happened in Ireland no leader had a clear vision how to defeat the British.

Collins I think was a lieutenant ( I think he was an aide de camp to McDiarmuida) in the1916 rising. After it's failure he seemed to quickly become one of the new leaders. He realized that the control of the intelligence area was crucial. He was one of the few that crossed both the political and military divide during the war of independence.

Even though the British tried to find him he openly moved around Dublin. He was the youngest of the leaders during the WOI. 28 years of age when it started and 32 when he died.

He seemed capable of achieving great loyalty from those that worked alongside him. He was the ultimate pragmatist and totally ruthless during the WOI. On bloody Sunday Collins plan was to execute about 50 possible British agents, Cathal Brugha reduced it to 35, they executed 15 and wounded 5 more. If the truce did not occur when it did there was a bigger culling of agents planned.

He realized the significance of the political detectives in Dublin castle and he wiped out the most dangerous of these at the start of the WOI.

Every other Irish revolution had been riven with informers from the 1798 rebellion to the 1916 one, Collins was the first revolutionary to beat the British at there own game.

It interesting if you read both Dan Breen's and Tom Barry's book they both had huge respect for Collins. Other accounts from the bureau of military history are similar.

When the anti-treaty prisoners in the Curragh heard of his death according to Tom Barry they all knelt down and said the rosary.

However you have to remember he was also minister for finance, he organized the importation of arms and there dispersal around the country and at the same time walked and cycled openly around Dublin.

Before his death at Beal Na Blath he probably had not fired a shot at anybody since 1916. Yet he was revered by the men of action.

For 50 years after him De Valera was the colossal of Irish politics, however he stated

''It is my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Michael Collins and it will be recorded at my expense.''

Some quotes of and about Collins

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/michael-collins-quotes.amp

The best biography's of him are by Ulick O Connor and Tim Pat Coogan

FrancieBrady · 24-08-2022 12:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513156#Comment_119513156

I thought it was hilarious that Neil Jordan spoiled the screening of the film to the FG BBQ by saying that he was too hard in his portrayal of Dev, at the weekend.

No wonder the FGers love that fictionalised account. 😁

This was funny too:

https://twitter.com/DrHaroldNews/status/1560952925672947713

Bass Reeves · 24-08-2022 12:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513321#Comment_119513321

Ha, Ha you are hilarious how you achieved this with a single brain cell I do not know

24-08-2022 12:38am

Collins identification of the informer and the reach of Castle intelligence as the key to action was as stated above marks him out as different. The British had empire down to a fine art remember: the local spies in the DMP and RIC were the first layer. It’s significant that large numbers of these left the country at independence. By chance I was checking a census online recently and at the bottom of the return was the signature of the RIC sergeant. That local knowledge needed to be broken.

How FG can canonize Collins while the Chair of the Defence and Foreign Affairs committee regards his men and by extension him as a murderer is bizarre.

Interestingly by the end of the Northern troubles the PIRA apart from South Armagh were thoroughly penetrated by informers. Money was one way, skipping NHS queues for treatment of family members another. And as the drugs trade loomed larger people sold out rival dealers to be hit. If you read about the failure of intervention in Afghanistan you will see the Afghans directed the SOF hits onto drug rivals. Ex RUC played a part there with much less success. Off topic!

Miadhc · 24-08-2022 1:51am

@Diespies i think it's time for a civil war discussion thread.

FrancieBrady · 24-08-2022 8:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513363#Comment_119513363

??

24-08-2022 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513514#Comment_119513514

I think it’s time for a discussion around commemoration. I don’t think it can be done here due to party members lining up to run out party message.

Bass Reeves · 28-08-2022 2:16am

Yesterday was the centerary of the formation of An Gardai Siochana. Its a really important day to have marked

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0827/1319053-dublin-castle-centenary-event/

It the civilian police force of one of the oldest democracies in Europe. Often we forget that this state for all it's flaws survived fascism, communism and dictatorship by the principle's of the founders of the state.

xxxxxxl · 28-08-2022 2:37am

Thought Ireland was a Republic ?

28-08-2022 9:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119513090#Comment_119513090

He was utterly reviled by large tracts of the country too

Most felt he took English guns,paid on English credit to enforce British objectives in Ireland.....hide behind threats of immediate war to justify a treaty which should never been signed,while then launching a civil war on his own countrymen at the behest of the english

Place an forced oath of loyalty to British royalty above a voluntary oath to build an Irish Republic......your right the cult worship of him is fcuking weird,and nowhere near objective has any of the media coverage been

(Afaik Griffith died like 10 days or so before Collins)

saabsaab · 28-08-2022 9:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119531908#Comment_119531908

What was the alternative to the treaty? Most of the country wanted peace at that stage as for launching civil war it could be reasonably argued that it was launched upon him and his provisional government.

FrancieBrady · 28-08-2022 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119531908#Comment_119531908

??I personally don't do reveramce for anyone. I view people warts and all. I find that works for me.

Zebra3 · 28-08-2022 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119503562#Comment_119503562

There was always a big pro-Tan sentiment here even though the Brits had been using camps long before the Germans.

Lest we forget that Hitler was inspired by Britain’s crimes against humanity during the Boer War.

28-08-2022 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119531963#Comment_119531963

100 years ago today,the dail launched the public safety bill....which needed retrospective justification after the civil war to justify it actions which allowed executions of anyone caught with arms

This is not the actions of a country seeking peace,it the actions of a government acting against its countrymen at the behest of English.......you need not scratch too hard to find people who still justify this bill,afaik,the much adored peacelover garret Fitzgerald regularly spoke up for it

saabsaab · 28-08-2022 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119532822#Comment_119532822

A terrible and extreme measureand probably counter productive too. I read somewhere about a boy 15 or so shot dead after being found with a gun.

28-08-2022 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119532864#Comment_119532864

Some of stuff went down in civil war was truly awlful and never fully acknowledged or apologised for by the state....there's a reason the bitterness dragged on for generations and people tend to hold politians/state figure in a type of contempt

Strazdas · 28-08-2022 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119531611#Comment_119531611

Yes, Ireland stumbled into being a peaceful democracy almost by accident. It was by no means certain at the end of the War of Independence and Civil War we would go down the peaceful parliamentary democracy route. The country could also have lurched into being a military dictatorship in the 1930s. It's a fine achievement that we have had 100 years of democratic rule.

Bass Reeves · 30-08-2022 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119532909#Comment_119532909

But the fact is we did not. Most of that was achieved by the early action of the first government. The action of Richard Mulcahy and Kevin O'Higgans in taking actions that supressed the first army munity. The peaceful hand over of ppwer in 1932. The subsquent loyaty of the army and An Gardai to the new government.

I posted earlier that one of the first atrocities of the civil war was the shooting of two Free state officiers in there beds in Kenmare after the retaking of the town in September 2022. While the Ballyseedy, Countess bridge, and Cahirciveen atrocities are well documented what is less know is the continual shooting of pro treaty supportes in Kerry right through the CW and not all were Irish army soldiers.

The figures are an indication of the selective memory some have. Accordining to historians there was 175 people killed from June'22 until May'23 in all types of actions. 15 were considered innocent civilians, 70 were anti treaty and 90 were pro treaty.

Collins Centenary Setpiece

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