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Irish Moiled & Rare breeds Market?

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    #32
    kollegeknight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭kollegeknight


    _Brian wrote: »
    That’s great.
    Credit to those keeping these breeds going and making a success of it.

    It’s great to see. I’m reducing my herd this year and will try a few of some breed.

    By 2021 I hope to keep my 3 speckle park, 2/3 red limos (on presumption they calf ok and go back in calf ok) and then hopefully 2/3 of Irish moiled or maybe droimeann. Polled moiled seem more appealing.

    And a bull to service them.
    I’ve to sell 5 empty cows in spring. The bull at end of summer and another 5 empty cows. So hoping to use that to set.up a little bit.


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    #33
    Castlekeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭Castlekeeper


    Hopefully the Droimeann and Moiled can be saved as a dairy breed as most are only poor quality sickles nowadays. Hardly enough genetic diversity but then again the modern international Holstein comes from 6 bulls so who know!


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    #34
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,740 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    _Brian wrote: »
    That’s great.
    Credit to those keeping these breeds going and making a success of it.

    Alot more CAP money should be going to those who are safe guarding the genetic base of our native agriculture


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    #35
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Alot more CAP money should be going to those who are safe guarding the genetic base of our native agriculture
    See my post above with reference to consultation document.


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    #36
    Mac Taylor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭Mac Taylor


    It’s been said before, but the rear breed needs a purpose....I’m interested my self in the droimeann breed but it cant be just to sell as a weanling in the local mart. I just haven’t figured this out yet.


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    #37
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    Great to see this, i see a lot of farmers around here farming land unfit for continental breeds and breeding cattle with big bulls just making life hard for themselves, we've thousands of acres of bog. mountain and rushes around here that native cattle would work away grand on and farmers letting big charlolais limousines and Belgians out on for 5 months of the year if they're lucky, why not farm the land you have with cows that can travel and thrive on it, I'd like to see a scheme that will introduce native breeds back onto the land and farmers might see better returns when they see less sickness, lameness from big cattle on slats for 3/4s of their lives, less vet bills from calves too big and less land maintenance from smaller cattle

    I know a local lad with a herd of dexters and he's delighted with how easy he has it since he changed over from continental breeds he has a full time job, the cattle are out year round and no hardship, easy calving and easy to handle, his biggest complaint is the price he gets for beef but any loss in income is compensated by less hassle in other ways, it could be the way forward for farmers who have jobs off farm and want to make life a bit handier


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    #38
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,509 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Certainly the way for poorer land, either those type of stock or light store cattle.
    A niche market is key, for a viable return.


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    #39
    Albert Johnson
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 1,890 Mod ✭✭✭✭Albert Johnson


    Water John wrote: »
    Certainly the way for poorer land, either those type of stock or light store cattle.
    A niche market is key, for a viable return.

    It was the way for 1000's of years but a lot has changed in the last 50 years both in and out of agriculture. Perhaps the wheel has almost gone full circle and we'll soon be looking to relearn the skills known to our ancestors that were largely lost in recent decades. It's all very romantic sounding when you look at it from that perspective.

    On a serious note I had this very conversation with one of the uncle's tonight. The talk turned to tying cow's in the byre as was the norm when he was my age and first started farming, they were milking at the time but changed to sucklers although still used the old stall system to winter the cow's. I raised the notion that the old tie up byres may soon come back into fashion especially for smaller herds and for those wishing to start out farming. A slatted shed is a sizeable investment especially for a small herd where as the older tie up byres may be already available or could be constructed perhaps significantly cheaper. It wouldn't suit all set-ups but could be an option none the less, despite all it's detractors there isn't much else apart from suckler farming that comes close to being viable locally.


    If the likes of the Irish Maol or similar could be kept on poorer ground and returned a modest income then perhaps we could look towards creating a more sustainable system all round. We're not really reinventing the wheel as the thinking outlined above was practiced since the dawn of Irish agriculture until very recently. Whatever your beliefs it's hard to see how modern methods have done much for the overall health of the Irish beef sector in recent years. We're very much on our knee's at the present time and I do believe that any and all possible alternatives deserve consideration before the final coffin nail is driven home on our industry.


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    #40
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Water John wrote: »
    Certainly the way for poorer land, either those type of stock or light store cattle.
    A niche market is key, for a viable return.
    Probably the way to go into the future with our native breeds provenance appealing to discerning consumers whilst the rest champion genetically altered/synthesised laboratory grown elixirs.


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    #41
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,579 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Alot more CAP money should be going to those who are safe guarding the genetic base of our native agriculture

    Yes but the rare breeds payment was included in glas which is closed to entrants and no signs it will open again. So it’s not possible to get any supports at the moment.

    With an urban centric party in government we will never see a proper understanding of rural affairs. Maybe all parties have lost their rural understanding at this stage.

    Combine that with the teagasc/IFA mantra that only large intensive farms matter we are on the cusp of loosing the ability to keep rare breeds and smaller biodiversity friendly farms in operation.


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    #42
    endainoz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,046 ✭✭✭endainoz


    _Brian wrote: »
    Yes but the rare breeds payment was included in glas which is closed to entrants and no signs it will open again. So it’s not possible to get any supports at the moment.

    With an urban centric party in government we will never see a proper understanding of rural affairs. Maybe all parties have lost their rural understanding at this stage.

    Combine that with the teagasc/IFA mantra that only large intensive farms matter we are on the cusp of loosing the ability to keep rare breeds and smaller biodiversity friendly farms in operation.

    Isn't there a premium attached to Dexter's for finishing that isn't GLAS related? Or is that to compensate having to keep them an extra year to finish?

    I'd love to buy a couple of organic Droimeann Heifers, hopefully the price won't go too high now with the renewed interest in them.


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    #43
    Castlekeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭Castlekeeper


    endainoz wrote: »
    Isn't there a premium attached to Dexter's for finishing that isn't GLAS related? Or is that to compensate having to keep them an extra year to finish?

    I'd love to buy a couple of organic Droimeann Heifers, hopefully the price won't go too high now with the renewed interest in them.

    Would you be thinking of keeping them as dairy cows?


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    #44
    endainoz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,046 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Castlekeeper wrote: »
    Would you be thinking of keeping them as dairy cows?

    Oh god no, wouldn't know much about dairy at all.


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    #45
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,509 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Dept of Ag isn't controlled by urban politicians, just governing by one in favour of big farm industry.
    If straw bedding is available, animals don't require a massive amount of it in loose housing esp if fed elsewhere.


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    #46
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    IFJ article last week about Droimeann cattle - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=112427213#post112427213


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    #47
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    The Old Irish goat has been classed as a native rare breed and will be elegible in future CAP schemes.

    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/old-irish-goat-recognised-as-native-rare-breed-to-ireland/

    Edit to add link to the Old Irish goat society website -

    https://oldirishgoat.ie/




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    #48
    n1st
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭n1st


    Great posts here thank you all. I've posted a similar question and later found this thread.

    I'm also very interested. I have 50 acres of decent grazing. It's been farmed for the past 40 yrs with bullocks and sheep, the usual breeds.

    I will be selling 16 European type bullocks in November.

    I would like to purchase 16 or so weanlings in March 2023.

    I'm also hoping to get into the new Acres and possibly Organic. I am purposely understocked.

    What do I need to know with regard to Dexter, Droimeann, bo riabhach and the difference in how the market works for summer drystock trade between the likes of Limousin and Dexter or Droimeann?


    I have no experience with heifers, bulls, calves, breeding and I don't know if I want to, I only know about steers. This could change if there was little risk.



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    #49
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119532289#Comment_119532289

    I've added a link to an Agriland article from last year about Dexters in the North. Apparently the average carcass weight is 170kgs but they do receive a premium price. I haven't heard of any meat plant this side of the border that is specialising in Irish rare breed cattle. I've seen the odd Dexter bullock/weanling bulls selling in Carrigallen mart but because they are so small/light they don't come into much money. The other thing to be aware off with Dexters is that some bloodlines carry a dwarfism gene which makes them even smaller -

    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-herd-names-come-to-the-fore-at-balmoral-show/

    A bit of information about Irish Moiled and k/o weights (220-260kgs) but I can't find info on how old they are at time of slaughter -

    http://www.peekapoos.info/2021/04/Irish-Moiled.html

    https://www.irishmoiledcattlesociety.com/breeder-to-butcher/

    A link giving some info on our Native cattle breeds -

    https://nationalinventoryich.chg.gov.ie/native-irish-cattle-breeding/

    As previously posted in this thread there is a resurgence of interest in the UK to promote the commercial use of their Native cattle breeds with premiums been paid in factories. The meat is highly sought after in high end restaurants in London. A family friend owns a couple of restaurants in London told me that the provenance of their Native breeds makes them highly sought after. It's an awful pity that we don't do the same here but I suppose it's due to lack of demand.



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    #50
    n1st
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭n1st


    Great information.

    170 kg carcass.

    With the smaller animal I presume try eat less. I could for example up my numbers from 16 to 30. But of course this would only be affordable if the purchase price is low. The difference between purchase and sell percentage would still need to be similar.


    Very difficult to find information online. I do know a guy with Dexters, I will contact him



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    #51
    n1st
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭n1st


    Seems to be a Moiled breeder in Westmeath


    https://www.farminglife.com/country-and-farming/irish-moiled-breeders-day-at-killua-castle-3820630


    Cows selling in September 3rd. Online auction or something on today



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    #52
    n1st
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭n1st


    Also money from ACRES for Molied , at least one pedigree calf must be produced each year

    https://thatsfarming.com/beef/moiled-cattle-payment

    https://thatsfarming.com/beef/moiled-cattle-payment

    Post edited by n1st on


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    #53
    Packrat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Packrat


    I've Dexters.

    i researched them to death before buying ny first ones. 16 now and rising. Any questions about then I'd be happy to answer.

    There is an ABP kill every few months and they usually pay about .50 tp €1 over standard price which would make a reasonable 26 month old Dexter bullock worth about 1100 to 1300. They cost little to bring to that stage if you're extensive.

    You have to be QA and the stock have to be Ped Reg ie birth notified but not genotyped which is far dearer.

    Be careful before you buy because whipst there are plenty of regd males available and ironically the Acres scheme will make them cheaper, there are also lots of unregd stock floating around.

    Female breeding stock getting difficult to source at the moment again due to Acres. Everyone trying increase to 20 LU to get the max out of it.

    “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command”



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    #54
    n1st
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭n1st


    Example here if a Moiled weanling steer, 950 euro.

    https://www.irishmoiledcattlesociety.com/young-bull-for-sale-3/


    If mature steer carcass is in the 250 kg mark then could kill out at 1550 euro at current reports, 5.80 per kg.



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    #55
    n1st
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭n1st


    https://www.farmersjournal.ie/in-pictures-meet-the-owner-of-the-world-s-smallest-cow-307858


    Kill at 200kg at 18 months at 5.50 per kg. I don't know if that means carcass is 200kg or live animal is.



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    #56
    n1st
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭n1st


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119533565#Comment_119533565

    Great information.

    A couple of questions.

    Does a Dexter have the same LU rate as other breeds?

    Where can you purchase Dexter steer weanlings each year?

    Is that factory kill at a particular time each year? I have sold my stock in November, would this still work?

    Is there Dexter steers weanlings to be got in March each year?



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    #57
    manjou
    Registered Users Posts: 379 ✭✭manjou


    Dexter cow same lu as any other cow. Abp kill every couple of weeks and pay a premium for them but they have to be registered or birth notified as pure dexter . A pbnr is not wanted by abp. If buying cattle make sure they have pedigree cert. Only problem going forward is there isn't enough female dexters in country to get everyone looking for 1 to get into acres. Steers can be got from ads on society or donee.



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    #58
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,267 ✭✭✭tanko


    From what i’ve heard Dexters can be lively feckers especially indoors, is this true?



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    #59
    Packrat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Packrat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119534257#Comment_119534257

    They can be wild if left too long without handling but become pure pets if you (ideally) tie them in or even in a loose house if you're giving a little taste of ration. Theyll know you different to any other person especially if you talk to them or call them.


    @n1st, Almost everyone with Dexter male calves is trying to sell them every Autumn.

    You have few competitors in that market (unfortunately for me and everyone else selling them)

    There are Whatsapp groups for each area of the country (kinda set up through the society, but not officially part of it)

    I'm in the Cork/Kerry one and if you put up a question on it I'd say you'd get plenty of them.

    I'm not quite up to speed with what they're making but I'd imagine about 450 to 500 would buy the very best of them.

    18 months is too early to kill Dexters. They naturally finish off grass at 26 to 28 months. Pushing them with meal is money wasted because they don't convert it efficiently.

    At that age (26 to 28) any decent bullock should weigh around 380 to 420. Kill out is higher than you'd expect at around 55 to 58%. That should leave you around 230kgs dead. The figure of 5.50 is well out of date, but let it run and you've 1265.

    Don't buy any shorties. Buy from the best breeder you can and they'll put on weight better, - there's plenty scrap around thats regd too.

    For your job, you'll find it easier to source Dexters than any other rare breed simply because there's more of them than any other.

    I presume you know that bullocks won't qualify for Acres?

    “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command”



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    #60
    funkey_monkey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    What happened to the Tory Cow? The last one was on the island in 1998. Are they extinct now or making a comeback?



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