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Young voters' view of the Troubles on the island of Ireland.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,762 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Must gall you that the demographic that will in the main vote for a UI is the one that continually chooses SF to represent them. The demographic that wrecked any chance of the partioned statelet working because of their sectarianism and bigotry were never going to be easily convinced and were far more trenchantly opposed to a UI before the outbreak of the war/conflict in 69 by the way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Absolute nonsense and no it doesn't "gall" me. I think if a successful united ireland is what we want, it would be a good idea to move away from parties that have caused so much misery. The soft unionists might have been convinced by the economic success we have in the ROI if they hadn't been hardened by the campaign of violence. To begin moving on from that SF would need to stop attending terrorists funerals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭slegs


    They are in for a big surprise if they think SF will solve that one....



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Would you not think,you should deal with the world and political reality as it is,and not what you wish it to be?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,762 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Parties that caused 'misery' here?

    So you want to basically get rid of all the major political parties on the island? Good luck with that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    The difference is that those involved with the violence in other parties are long, long dead. You cannot compare 1922 to 2022 much as you would like to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,762 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I can and I will. And so will the young.

    The young moved the country forward from 1922 and they will do it again in 2022.

    Even the hypocrites in the power swap realise the above fact of life and are clambouring on to the UI bandwagon. Give it a few years and they'll be on here claiming it was always their goal and their idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    If a UI is achieved, it will be in spite of SF rather than because of them. For all the failures of FF and FG over the years, they have still created a successful modern democracy with one of the highest standards of living in the world. SF have achieved nothing. Obviously we have a housing crisis at the moment and you being more credulous than me seem to think that SF have the answers to that. It is very easy to complain about issues but much more difficult to solve them. TD's are basically salespeople, they rely on state employees to do the actual work and this is where it often falls down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    SF are not willing to address the core problems driving it, that would be problematic, they are willing to address some of the issues though.


    No one could say FF or FG are even willing to do that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,762 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Oh FFS.

    FF and FG spent most of the last 100 years ignoring the partitioned part of this island and shoring up the suprematist state, if not deliberately then by proxy.

    Stop rewriting history.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    They were dealing with the political reality that the majority of people in NI wanted to be part of the UK and probably still do. That might change in the future and if it does it will be partly due to them wanting to join a successful country which will provide opportunities to them.

    I get the hard line SF supporters on here (like you) are ok with SF's past. I think young people have just been conned into thinking they will get a cheap house if SF get in. There is pretty much no hope of that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Why is unfamiliarity blamed for young people voting SF "in spite" of the troubles, when the border counties - the regions where most people actively lived & experienced the troubles - have the highest % of SF voters nationwide?

    Perhaps the article is just a rag, written by one of the IT's many unionist-leaning writers



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Voters do not have a problem with it, polls show SF very high in voting intentions.


    In many countries in Europe and especially in America, military service is looked upon favourably.


    I don't expect Britain to cancel Poppy day, distasteful as it is in many cases and ways, same for Unionists or loyalists.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,834 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Typical yuppie celtic tiger comment.

    People seeing a house as an "investment" or "property" to be upgraded or used in the "property ladder" rather than seen as a home for your family.

    Young people would be delighted to own 1 house in their lifetime so negative equity means fk all to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    I lived in Belfast for some of the worst of the Troubles.


    There certainly were alternatives, and most Catholics supported them. Young people probably don't realise that because of Sinn Féin's PR over the last ten years or so, but there were alternatives and most Catholics did not support the campaign. They can say whatever they want, the reality is people did want them to stop virtually from the moment they started fighting.

    And it achieved nothing. The Civil Rights movement would have certainly advanced our quality of life far more quickly and left us with a far less divided society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    You aren't actually seriously comparing being a member of a terrorist organisation as military service? Now you are just trolling and it is a very bad attempt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,762 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A nice rewrite of history there.

    Constitutionally, those people they ignored were Irish citizens. You know the ones who were being oppressed by a sectarian bigoted gerrymandered state?

    I agree, they thought more of the gerrymandering, sectarian bigots than they did of Irish people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Conveniently you leave out that many civil rights marches were subject to vicious attacks at the hands of both loyalists and the police. The PIRA only really came to the fore after the civil rights movements stalled and people were being chased out of their homes by the state.

    The idea that a purely peaceful movement would have achieved what has been achieved at this point in time is purely speculative, but also highly unlikely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    It would have achieved much more. Strangely enough using violence against people has the effect of hardening them against you. If they had of stayed with the peaceful marches they would have had the moral high ground. You lose that once you start blowing up pubs with civilians in them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,762 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You enjoy your freedom as a result of the actions of a 'terrorist organisation' Herr. Despite your attempts to use arbitary cut off dates, that is the logic here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The moral high ground is great when you've been beaten by the state alright, or been chased out of your home. The pacifist approach famously worked for all those now-extinct people and cultures throughout history.

    It would certainly seem from voter intentions that most people either agree with or are apathetic to the actions of the PIRA during the troubles.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,762 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    MoN was asked about her family's role and said they felt they had no alternative.

    And for many there was no alternative and likewise for many there was an alternative. Similar to war/conflict anywhere.

    The people who the main responsibility lies, the British, had an 'alternative', there was nothing, absolutely nothing to stop them instituting the reforms and rights in the GFA in 1969 or long before for that matter.

    They stood by and allowed the statelet to fester and then allowed it go up in flames and spent 30 tragic years shoring up Unionism until they finally came to the table.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    In 1916 there was no recognised right of self determination internationally. Military means was the only option available to them at the time. This changed with the Atlantic Charter in 1941 which recognised states right to self determination and was signed up to by the US and the UK. So, I would say that is a reasonable cutoff and not arbitrary at all.

    Pre 1941 - the only means to achieve freedom was through military action

    Post 1941 - right of self determination



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    I view people who volunteered as far superior to those who served in State militaries, more committed, more decent, more concerned about their country, their community, taking a course that only had death or jail as the outcome and still standing up.


    Much of the RUC and especially the British army were the lowest of the low, not all and I have met fine examples of people in both but it was a dumping ground as well from sink estates in Scotland and England but paid to be like that just as long as it was outside of England. There estates were better places with them gone as well.


    Most of the people I know who were volunteers are still dedicated to their community and putting in long Hours each week on local projects and issues.


    You just look at in a way that is different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    So the UK signed up to that to acknowledge the right to self-determination. And yet failed to recognise it in the case of Catholics in NI. No wonder military action was needed then in response.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    We do look at it in a different way, yes. It is similar to ISIS supporters saying they are upholding Islamic values and do great things for the community etc. Just different types of extremism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    A poll would not have passed at that time and probably wouldn't now. I don't see any inconsistency there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,762 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Thankfully we can live in hope the next generation isn't so blind. I give up on Herr's generation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    "mostly targeted those who had to be taken out."

    Jesus, you know sweet feck all of what went down in NI in the 1970s and 80s.

    Brutal sectarian killing by both sides. Ordinary folk in many cases who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and were killed and maimed. In other cases, people picked out deliberately.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    We tried SF/PIRA's approach and we have the current situation. We have the outcome from their approach, still division, hatred, bonfires etc. We didn't try the peaceful civil rights approach. I think it would have worked much better and we might even have had a UI by this point if it had have been tried. Also, I suspect the younger generation are not thinking about this as SF have tried to move away from it (at least publicly and explicitly). SF have tried 1) EU stealing our fish 2) we are giving away hundreds of billions in oil and gas for free 3) housing crisis.

    #3 has finally struck gold, but we don't hear about #1 and #2 at all anymore, must have been rubbish at the time. If SF get in, they need to sort out #3, no excuses, no we need more than one term or anything like that. They will be judged based on that. The actions they can take will be a bit more restricted than supporters are thinking.



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