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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,670 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I find it ironic that there is talk about a windfall tax on energy companies due their profiting from a rise in wholesale prices for energy. Now the one section of the energy market to really profit has been the wind turbine operators - so a windfall tax for wind energy companies.

    How is it that companies that claim they only supply energy from renewable sources saw a need to raise prices in line with the rising fossil fuel prices when their costs remained exactly the same? I smell a rat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭KildareP


    Because electricity is paid at whoever is the most expensive producer day by day. So wind turbine generators are paid exactly the same per megawatt hour of energy as those producing using gas, oil or coal. Since gas pricing has gone through the roof and most of our generation capacity relies on gas the wind, oil and coal generators are creaming it.

    SSE Airtricity are 100% green right?

    Their sister company, SSE Thermal, owns more generation capacity in fossil fired stations in Ireland than SSE do as a whole in wind generation (~700MW):

    600MW Tarbert thermal and gas turbine station, part gas, most heavy oil.

    460MW Great Island gas fired gas turbine plant in Wexford.

    120MW Rhode oil fired gas turbine peaker plant in Offaly.

    104MW Tawnaghmore oil fired gas turbine peaker plant in Mayo.

    How they call themselves green is once you can tally up how much wind you inject into the grid over a set period of time, say a year, or purchase enough power from wind generators wholesale, then subtract the amount of energy you retail to customers within that same period of time, if the balance is positive, voila - you're 100% green!



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Proper grants to property owners to install solar panels and other energy generating means should be given. Even free installation. Paid back over a period of time if needs be. We are all paying either way anyhow.. higher energy cost , higher taxes , environmental costs etc

    Post edited by handlemaster on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    It makes sense however that is putting state problems on the shoulders of citizens. Successive governments have been playing that card for years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    He is saying this now in order to avoid paying his staff a working wage. Classic ruse blame the next guy higher up, ie the government and in turn the government blame the EU



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Only 14.8% of the hours in a year are of direct sunshine. When panels are shaded by cloud, their output drops 75-90%. 70% of daylight hours in Ireland are cloudy. This is one of the worst countries you could imagine for solar. The loud whosh, whosh noise of wind turbines means most people would not actually want their neighbour to put one up and wouldn't want one themselves, either, unless they were deaf.

    Intermittent energy sources got us into this mess and they are not the answer to getting us out of it.

    Currently wind is providing 3.9% of our energy needs and it's cloudy. People who think more of the same uselessness is the answer, are delusional. Unfortunately such a person, an ex used bicycle salesman no less, has a couple of the most important and relevant government portfolios at the moment. I predict he won't have those portfolios much longer and if the predicted blackouts occur, he's going to need 24/7 armed protection.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    What is the connection between the energy supply situation and his employees pay, and how would increasing the latter fix the problems of the former? Oh it was just pointless deflection, my bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    It would still take a nice chunk out of our gas consumption if we had a couple GW of solar installed but really we would need more storage and more interconnectors to go with it.


    I doubt yer man who you mentioned will need any armed protection because we just put up with politicians no matter what they do to us. Back during the recession the best they can come up with was "lets make all those silly normal people pay us every year so they can continue to live in their own house" people had their bit of a moan on Joe Duffy and have been happily paying to live in their own houses ever since. It must be a hang over from colonial times that we put up with this amount of sh1t. If one of the government ministers visits some town in the backarse of nowhere you'll see people lining up on the street in awe for the chance to shake his hand and plámás him regardless of the misery he is inflicting on those very same people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    The connection is that loaf only says things when his pocket is threatened and he doesn’t give to **** about anyone or anything else.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,326 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Opposition to windmills based on their whoosh noise is nothing compared to the opposition to having a nuclear plant open anywhere in Ireland.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Interconnectors and the EU policy driving them are just more energy policy stupidity. They relies on the stupid assumption that the other end of the connection likes you and has the stuff to spare itself, which given that much of Europe tends to experience simmilar weather, simultaneously, is unlikely to be the case.

    The only sane energy policy is self reliance and stable, continous and reliable domestic energy generation sufficient to meet demand.

    Solar in Ireland is sheer stupidity - only 14.8% of the hours in a year are direct sunshine. No commercial entity would ever build out solar power in this country without insane levels of subsidy to make something inherently uneconomic, viable to them as in investment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,326 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Now show one where people are asked do they want a nuclear power plant in their county.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Happily, right after I announce that a yes vote gets them free electricity for 20 years. For those that voted yes, that is.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,326 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    You mean, free electricity for twenty years, in twenty years? Because that's how long it'd take to build anything nuclear here, at least.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,031 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    No chance of that - nuclear-generated electricity is very expensive. Remember in the 1950s the world was promised that nuclear power would be "so cheap it's free" - never happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,217 ✭✭✭plodder


    Energy security and reduction of CO2 output are two completely different issues. The electricity market already has incentives for predictable and dispatchable producers (like natural gas) for when wind power is low, but wind power is prioritised when it is available. Which makes complete sense.

    The problem apparently is that companies who committed to generate around 600 MW have reneged on those commitments, and it seems like they can get away it. So, big profits when the market suits them, but they can walk away when it doesn't suit them. That looks like a major governance failure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    That's how prices for electricity are set. It is gas that covers peak supply.


    Doesn't matter source, whatever the company wants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    I pass a solar farm project in Cork every morning.


    Private capital project.


    Who could ever imagine private capital backing Nuclear? No, nor can I.


    Even with a cold winter and people freezing, nuclear will still be down the list in value.


    I have no problem with people calling for nuclear as part of a strategic energy source, No problem with it being built on that grounds, I'm opposed to any plant closing before latest date but pretending it is cheap or value is too far for me.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,670 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we leave nuclear for the nuclear thread.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I have no prob with a windfall tax on energy firms, and have always thought the wind energy pricing was a bit bonkers , guarantee access to the grid , and a minimum price , fair enough ,

    But no maximum price ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    until now gas was so cheap, that it wasn’t a big deal. Wind was only getting a small premium from this system when gas was cheap. It helped encourage the building of new renewables, while not really costing much.

    Of course it is now totally broken with the big increase in gas prices.

    Im not sure about here, but in the UK they are planning to change this system and disconnect the price of renewables from the price of fossil fuels, which should help consumers benefit from the lower prices of renewables.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭gjim


    "Windfall" taxes are a bad idea and damage the basis for investment.

    In any case, they are not appropriate in this case as there is effectively a maximum price on renewable electricity. RESS 1 prices represent Contract for Difference strike prices. If the wholesale price is higher than the strike price, the generator pays back the difference (according to this) to the government while if the wholesale price is under, the money flows the other way. There is no windfall to tax - the generator earns the same amount regardless of wholesale prices.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW some good news, the idea of their being gas shortages in Europe this winter seems to be largely resolved and no longer a threat.

    Germany has reduced it’s dependence on Russia gas from 55% last year, to just 10% now. But more impressively they have already filled 85% of their gas storage facilities, well ahead of schedule and and are expecting to hit 95% weeks ahead of schedule. All very good news which means even if Russia completely cuts off gas supplies, it won’t have a big impact anymore.

    Of course we will be paying top dollar for all this expensive imported LNG, that will still be an issue. But at least there is now no fear of people going cold or power plants going offline.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Thanks - I got that bit very wrong - so could / will that excess be used like a reverse PSO levy ? Or does it go to government coffers... ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    I'm not so sure... if Putin starts squeezing the EU by playing with NS1 things will could get ugly very quickly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Germany looks to be getting itself fully set up for winter and NS1 has been low for a while. Other countries are also looking to get ready, so the ugly may be on his end especially with the upcoming oil embargo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    German gas storage has been refilled in no small part due to gas imports from Russia. If NS is shut down fully this year or next, it will make refilling for the following winter that much harder.

    Its not the end of the world but its far from business as usual - despite the storage rates there are still pushing massive cutbacks to energy and gas usage across Germany. Germany desperately need an alternate supply of gas - is there enough LNG supply in the market to cover them if Russia cut them off?



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    There may finally be some EU intervention in the energy market. As always such things are slow.





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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    “I'm not so sure... if Putin starts squeezing the EU by playing with NS1 things will could get ugly very quickly.”

    NS1 is already only running at 20% capacity, so no, if they cut it off completely, it won’t be a big deal as Germany now has this storage buffer.

    “German gas storage has been refilled in no small part due to gas imports from Russia. If NS is shut down fully this year or next, it will make refilling for the following winter that much harder”

    Not really, as I mentioned above, NS1 has been running at only 20% capacity. They have mostly been filling the storage with LNG imports from LNG terminals in Netherlands, Denmark and France (plus Norwegian piped gas). For instance the interconnector between the Netherlands and Germany has been running at maximum capacity of 35 bcm/year, up from the normal average of flow of 11bcm. That is more then a 3 fold increase

    For all of the talk of Germany being reliant on Russia and having no LNG terminals, everyone seemed to forget that they also had lots of interconnectors to the Western neighbours and those neighbours have extensive LNG facilities.

    As for the following winter, Germany is currently building 5 floating LNG terminals, the first will be operational this winter, the other four by next summer. Germany then will have more then enough capacity to completely replace Russian gas.



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