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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Whatever about the merits of the tour in terms of player development , the idea that it's some kind of "slap in the face" for the URC just doesn't make sense.

    If anything it potentially makes the teams for those few weeks a little stronger in so far as the front line internationals will all likely be playing barring injury.

    Is the URC devalued if Sexton or Carbery start because Harry Byrne or Ben Healy are in South Africa for example?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    I'll take Murray Kinsellas opinions over yours thanks

    This mini-tour is a new venture on Ireland’s part, with head coach Andy Farrell understood to be keen to continue building depth towards next year’s World Cup and beyond.

    Ireland’s relative lack of depth has been an issue at the two most recent World Cups in 2015 and 2019.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fair enough, you're entitled to. If Murray Kinsella thinks a lack of depth was our problem in 2019 then I think he is very wrong.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They are taking 32 players out of the competition to go play Currie Cup sides in South Africa. Of course it is a slap in the face of the URC.

    It remains to be seen what the squad is but there is very little chance that every player selected here is going to be replaced in the provincial squads with an international. As usual, Leinster will be fine but suspect Ulster in particular to be hard hit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I wonder if he is getting any inside information.


    The inplication here is that the squad will be a mix between fringe internationals and high potential young players who probably do belong in a provincial a squad.


    This might mean that the 4 provinces are down 15 players who would have started in urc games instead of being down 30. That's a much smaller effect on the league.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Lack of depth was absolutely not our problem in 2019. We had almost everyone fit and healthy, think Herring was about the only injury absentee and Aki was suspended.

    A lot of things went wrong in 2019 but not having enough players wasn't the issue.

    And to be honest, lack of depth wasn't our problem in 2015 either. The sort of depth we'd have needed to absorb all those key absences will always be beyond a country with our player pool.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    So what exactly do you want them to do here.

    Not have these players involved at all or perhaps have 70+ in camp for the November series?

    There is a need to have a look at these guys and give them exposure to being in camp , in a touring scenario to get them acclimatised to the environment etc.

    It has to be done sometime and frankly 2 weeks at the end of September seems like a far better option than other potential options.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Well , yes and no.

    There were far too many players utterly guaranteed of their starting spot in both cases , in a lot of ways driven by a perceived lack of depth or at least an unwillingness to expose the next tier of player to the higher levels.

    There were of course other issues , but a lack of depth/alternatives definitely played a role in the overall outcome.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭Shehal


    But that's down to poor squad management rather than lack of depth, England had that exact same issue the year before.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭Shehal


    To be fair I dont think many countries would have been able to cope with the injuries we suffered in 2015, its okay to lose plays but when the majority of you're spine is gone what can you really do.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Very true , either way though there weren't enough players getting sufficient exposure to push for places - Whether that's because Mgmt just weren't picking them or because they simply weren't there, the outcome is the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I think you’re seriously overstating the impact this will have on the URC



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    There is a need to have a look at these guys and give them exposure to being in camp 

    Is there? I think its a bit of a reach to suggest there is a "need" to do something no other nation is doing. Ireland already has insane access to their players in comparison to the global standard.

    Let's see what the announced squad is, but if its player just outside the current Irish 23 it will impact the provinces heavily enough and if its much more fringe players its not got much relevance to the RWC.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    On a practical level it won't impact Leinster much, the other provinces a bit more (there has been mention of e.g. McCloskey travelling, that is a big impact on the URC for Ulster). But its symbolic of a pretty poor attitude in the IRFU to the URC and not helpful when you are trying to get people on board with a new competition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 37 Khan77


    I'm surprised the URC release agreement allows for simultaneous tour of a national open (at least in terms of no age restriction) side alongside the domestic season. Given it also overlaps the first couple of weeks of the AIL as well as the URC it really is two fingers up to the provinces and club game. Suspect Ulster would be the province most affected, Lowry, Stockdale, Hume, McCloskey, Doak, O'Sullivan, O'Toole, Moore, Timoney. Munster could have Haley, Farrell, Casey, Loughman, Coombes all from the starting 23 going.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Release agreement? The URC is essentially a union-run competition. According to Wikipedia ProRugby Wales are represented on the board, but would their presence be enough to mean there's some sort of release agreement? It's not like in England and France.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I wouldn't be bringing almost any of the names above.

    Anyone that traveled to New Zealand shouldn't be involved to be honest , so from the above you'd be looking at Stockdale , Haley ,O'Sullivan and Moore.

    This should be about emerging players and guys that perhaps have been capped in the past but haven't been involved in a while due to injury etc.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The URC is owned and run by the unions and these same unions do not give a crap about the league, a fact that they demonstrate time and time again.

    Taking players off on a junket to play currie cup teams in the middle of the league season, it's beyond a joke at this stage but they just don't care, and are barely even hiding it anymore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 37 Khan77


    And given CVC have taken a 25% stake in the URC I think it's reasonable to assume they have received committments to ensure their investment is protected. We've seen four less fixtures to remove any overlap between Autumn Internationals and Six Nations and ensure the top players play a greater proportion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Don't agree personally, for me it wouldn't have mattered who we picked in 2019, the squad was broken at that point & we'd a coaching team who couldn't fix it.



    On the topic of this mini-tour, it's an absolute joke. I can't imagine another country who would even consider something so ridiculous. Openly contemptuous to the league.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I suppose the optimum scenario would be that Farrell selects players he thinks could be in the mix come RWC 2023, but who currently aren't getting much provincial gametime. Of course, there probably aren't too many players in that category.

    Aaron Sexton and Cormac Izuchukwu would be interesting picks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think wycherly x2 travel. Kendellen with an eye to the future! Connors should go, Penny? Possibly. McCarthy; Thornbury and Nurray should go. If not outer fringe and upcoming lads, what's the point?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I think at least one of the reports said that the teams that played against the Maori would be the starting point? No mainstays of the actual internationals, but certainly some of those on tour.


    For Ulster that's Treadwell, O'Toole, Timoney, McCloskey and Lowry, off the top of my head. Then, presumably, they'll want time in camp for inexperienced players who only didn't play in NZ through injury - Hume and Baloucoune. He might want to see if Stockdale still warrants a space.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    SportsJoe have hazarded a guess at the squad, but I'd say they're waaaaay off. Way off.


    https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/emerging-ireland-squad-south-africa-tour-270842



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    That seemed to be the suggestion in the Indo article yesterday, but I got the impression from Murray Kinsella's article that it might be more experimental:

    "It’s understood that the squad will not include any of the frontline players who helped Ireland to beat the All Blacks in their Test series in New Zealand earlier this summer, but several of the players who featured in the midweek games against the Māori All Blacks will be involved again.

    Ireland also intend to bring a crop of high-potential uncapped young players who have shone for the Ireland U20s over the past three or four seasons but have seen their opportunities in senior rugby limited by the level of competition for places within the provinces."

    You could ask would Tom O'Toole actually benefit much from being involved? He's been in Ireland camp a fair bit, so there's probably limited room left for him improving just from being in the set-up. At this stage he probably needs Test exposure to keep advancing his game.

    Case-by-case basis, I guess.

    Tommy O'Brien won't be back in time from his long-term injury, for one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I would have thought it affects Leinster most. Probably half of the squad will come from Leinster. It won’t include all of the first choice internationals, who probably won’t be a available either.

    if missing a couple of front line players undermines the value of the URC. Then it’s value is fairly low. At any given time each province could be missing 3-4 front line players through injury.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I'm assuming the first choice internationals will be back as mooted, if not its an absolute disaster. That's why Leinster should be ok - whereas Ulster will likely lose far more than they will get back.


    Its not "missing a couple of frontline players" either - its taking 33 players completely out of the league for several weeks to play significantly worse South African sides then they would be facing in the URC...



  • Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Surely you can see the enormous difference between missing players through injury and missing players cause they're away on a bizarrely timed tour?

    The value of the URC is fairly low, and things like this are exactly why.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    According to the 42, there'll be "several" uncapped players. I suppose we'll just see when we see.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Surely you can see that this will have little or no affect on the greater scheme things at all. The matches will go ahead with a few players missing. No one will even remember it happened by the time the season ends. You just hate the league and will look for any excuse to moan about it.



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