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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #16922
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539065#Comment_119539065

    If you think playing for their provinces against mediocre opposition would be better for them. Than training and playing within the Irish system. Fair enough, I don’t agree.

    The first choice players are only starting preseason now. I can’t see them being ready to play before mid October.



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    #16923
    ersatz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539390#Comment_119539390

    Yeah, this is a phenomenal opportunity for younger players and for older guys who have dropped down the list due to injury or form or just the conveyor belt. It will have little or no effect on the league and will actually mean audiences get a chance to see front line players who often don't appear in these regular season league matches. Storm in a tea cup. And it will have a positive impact on the strength of the wider Irish squad, literally no downsides to this idea.



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    #16924
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539390#Comment_119539390

    You think the URC is mediocre opposition?

    They are flying to South Africa to play teams who are not good enough to be in the URC.



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    #16925
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539390#Comment_119539390

    If the first choice players are not back this is a farce. The provinces will be down 50+ players across the board!

    There are interpros and games against actual SA teams in this window. That is not "mediocre opposition". The opposition they will be playing against instead is several levels worse. Yes, there is some benefit to instead being within the "Irish system" but I think it is limited if none of the internationals are there and it has to be taken in the context of further diminishing any attempt to take the URC seriously. It's almost like we're actively trying to undermine any attempt to build a proper 'domestic' competition.



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    #16926
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539374#Comment_119539374

    I love the league and completely agree with him. He moans about it precisely because of stuff like this that serves to detract from it as a serious competition.



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    #16927
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539374#Comment_119539374

    Go ahead with a few players missing?

    I think you have your Leinster hat on here stephen_n. Outside of Leinster, the "fringe" Ireland players who are likely to go on this tour are very important first team players. We don't all have the luxury of 3 or 4 guys in every position.

    This tour is absolutely making a mockery of the league. How can you possibly claim it's a serious competition when you are going to take players away from teams to go play nothing matches. It's nonsensical.

    If the RFU or the FFR proposed this their clubs would laugh them out of the room. The mind genuinely boggles.



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    #16928
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539509#Comment_119539509

    phenomenal opportunity for younger players and for older guys who have dropped down the list

    I really hope we don't see the older guys who've dropped down the list. This tour shouldn't be about them.



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    #16929
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539509#Comment_119539509

    “Phenomenal opportunity” seems to be overstating things to me, tbh.

    And I’m not convinced it’ll have little or no effect on the league; 2nd thru 6th was really close fought and exchanged hands a few times over the final weeks of the season last year. And we know home advantage can count for a lot.

    But it’s practically impossible to quantify, so I agree it’ll probably be forgotten about by seasons end. Possibly with one caveat.

    This tour is adding additional games to an already stretched calendar, at a time when player welfare is already in the limelight. If there are (m)any significant injuries, I can see this tour receiving criticism after the fact tbh.



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    #16930
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539557#Comment_119539557

    The opposition is irrelevant, compared to the time in camp. With the coaches, learning the systems. Giving the coaches times with players.

    Playing for their provinces against slightly better opposition will benefit Ireland how? Will benefit the players how?



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    #16931
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539565#Comment_119539565

    It’s two games that will be mildly affected. Probably won’t affect the outcomes. If any of the provinces are that badly affected by missing a McCloskey, Prendergast or a Coombes. Then they are probably not good enough to compete anyway.

    Will those games be any less affected than the 2 games in the middle of the 6N? Or the one directly after the 6N. International rugby will always be more important to the unions than the URC. It creates far higher revenue.



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    #16932
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,802 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119538890#Comment_119538890

    If that squad comes to pass we'll struggle to field a backline in the URC. I'd say Marcus Rea would be the sort of player that Farrell would be looking at as well.



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    #16933
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,802 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    I'm not massively against the idea, but it would make more sense to go during the November tests when there are no URC matches (at least there weren't last year). Obviously that would mean sending a completely different coaching and management team which may miss the point of the tour I suppose.



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    #16934
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539662#Comment_119539662

    If the opposition is irrelevant they'd be as well playing a few games against Lansdowne seniors.

    I would suggest the URC is not only "slightly" better than currie cup teams.



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    #16935
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I think we ultimately need to wait and see what happens. If they are selecting a few fringe players and then a bunch of kids while also releasing the front line internationals then there may be little to no impact on the provinces and the league. If that’s the case then it’s no big deal.

    If, on the other hand, they take a large group of fringe players and aren’t releasing the internationals then it is a big deal and a terrible move. And there may be degrees in between.

    At this point we simply don’t know what this is going to be nor what the impacts are going to be. So we simply can’t call how good, bad or indifferent the tour is.



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    #16936
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539727#Comment_119539727

    I think you’re generally a quality poster and contributor here Stephen, so I’m a bit surprised at this:

    If any of the provinces are that badly affected by missing a McCloskey, Prendergast or a Coombes. Then they are probably not good enough to compete anyway.

    We’ll have to wait and see the squad announced, but I think it could easily have a material affect tbh. You’ve possibly singled out the 3 best / most important players for Ulster, Munster and Connacht. And judging by the Māori game (which was referenced in the announcement) it’ll be a lot more than that. Missing for 3 games.

    I don’t see how that is anything other than a material impact.

    And I would’ve thought after last year that even Leinster would’ve learned that the margins towards the end of the season can be fine.



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    #16937
    ersatz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539585#Comment_119539585

    I actually had Marty Moore in mind with that. He was playing well last season and if he keeps it up then I coould see him benefit from tour, if he travels obvs.



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    #16938
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539838#Comment_119539838

    What players from Ulster and Munster do you think they can select where there would be no impact on them, even if the internationals are released?



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    #16939
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    The only way it makes sense IMO, is if the touring party is mostly made up of high potential young players who need game time, but wouldn't be involved for their province anyway.

    I'm thinking Jack Boyle, Michael Milne, John McKee, Scott Buckley, Tom Clarkson, Keynan Knox, Izuchuckwu, Edwin Edogbo, Thomas Ahern, Daniel Okeke, Alex Soroka, Alex Kendellan, Matthew Devine, Sam Prendergast, Jack Crowley, Cathal Forde, Jude Postlethwaite, Patrick Campbell etc.

    These guys will likely be holding tackle bags in September anyway, so getting them games makes sense. But taking players out of competitive URC games against good opposition, to go play meaningless games against sub-URC level opposition makes literally no sense.



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    #16940
    RichieRich_89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119540010#Comment_119540010

    It would have to be a meteoric rise for some them to push their way into contention for the World Cup 33. I could see Loughman, Ahern, Deegan - those sorts of players - benefitting from being included, if only because it would probably make them more viable options in Farrell's mind for further Ireland selection later on. But, I suppose we'll wait and see.



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    #16941
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539994#Comment_119539994

    Loughman, Ahern, Treadwell, Kendellan, Crowley, Campbell, Moore, McIlroy all spring to mind. Guys like EOS, Casey or even Doak could go as well without it being the end of the world for the provinces if guys like Warwick, Murray and Cooney were available. I’m sure there’s others that I can’t think of off the top of my head.



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    #16942
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119540224#Comment_119540224

    Sad to say that McIlroy does not have the pace for international rugby despite his other attributes.



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    #16943
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Here's the thing. You either

    1. Pick players who are on the fringe of the Ireland team, who are realistically in a position to get into the squad for the RWC. As far as I know, there are no players in this category, outside of Leinster, who are not very important players for their province.
    2. Pick players who are not important provincial players. As far as I know, there are no players in this category, outside of Leinster, who have a hope in hell of getting into Ireland's senior panel for the RWC.

    #1 **** all over the league, and #2 is pointless.



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    #16944
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119540801#Comment_119540801

    But again, how much of this is purely RWC focused? Is some of it even more long term focused too? Two birds with one stone type thing. Are there guys like Larmour or Frawley where they want to work on very specific things? Are there areas of depth that we want to address specifically by bringing in guys like Loughman and Ed Byrne at LH? Are we keen to develop a bigger tighthead lock type player in someone like Joe McCarthy as well as trying to get promising guys like Treadwell to kick on?

    I can’t imagine there’s a singular purpose here. There’s probably multiple things they are looking to do depending on position and player. And then there could well be a bunch of guys being brought to bring up the numbers and facilitate the whole thing. It’s probable that not all 30+ players are being looked at for the RWC and those that aren’t will be younger guys down the depth chart in the provinces, but who have promise longer term. It might just be a dozen guys or so that they are looking at them in the short term, but deem those players/positions to be important.

    But this is the problem. We just don’t know. Forming an opinion on such little information just seems pointless to me.



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    #16945
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541246#Comment_119541246

    But again, how much of this is purely RWC focused?

    This is the IRFU source quote when it was announced:

    “If you look at the lessons from the World Cup in England and Japan I think the depth was an issue in both,” an IRFU source said. “Andy was happy with how much the players learned in New Zealand, so he wants to extend that to give us the required depth for the World Cup. That’s probably 45 when you take into account injuries before the tournament and then when it’s up and running.”

    If we're talking about longer-term promise, I daresay those players would be better off getting gametime against higher calibre opposition, and an interpro.



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    #16946
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,358 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    We’ve had years of people complaining about Ireland making the same mistakes at the World Cup. Try something different and it’s being called either pointless or crapping on the URC.

    I doubt he’s bringing players who haven’t a hope of making the WC, it’ll be the guys who played the Māori barring players like Earls and players just outside that level who could get a call up to the WC for injuries.

    I like it it’s a different approach and shows they are at least trying something, the level of opposition is probably no where near as important as getting these players into a camp and not having them as the midweek team whilst the starters do slightly different things.



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    #16947
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541294#Comment_119541294

    And maybe I’m reading that wrong, but that reads to me that they want 45 guys capable of going to the RWC. The squad size is 33. That’s where the 12 figure I mentioned came from. If they are looking at guys outside the 33 then 12 or so is the number they are looking at. Now how many of the guys they bring are in contention for that 12 and how many are making up the numbers/longer term investments we can’t tell yet. But the overall point is that it’s probable that not all 30+ players are in contention for that back-up RWC group.

    And within that back-up group there may be different things they want to bring on. Maybe they want to develop leadership abilities among some. Maybe they want to identify genuine competition for the RWC squad in others. There’s loads of things that could be going on. Right now it’s impossible to tell what the objectives are and what the impact on anything will be.

    There is a lot of me playing devils advocate here, and if it turns out this has a big impact on 1 or more provinces it would want to be a very productive tour to be worthwhile and I’m not sure it would be. I’m open to the idea that this is total BS. But I’m not going to assume it is when I know feck all about it.



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    #16948
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541298#Comment_119541298

    This is serious strawmanning.

    Being unhappy at our lack of depth in the past does not mean you have to approve of this bizarre move.

    Honestly, the IRFU could have announced they're taking the lads to Butlins for a week and we'd still be hearing how this is going to be valuable time for the group, they'll learn how to live in a hotel for a while.



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    #16949
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541379#Comment_119541379

    I absolutely love your cynicism. Honestly. Never change!



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    #16950
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541369#Comment_119541369

    Two points come to mind on this:

    1. This could turn out to be a productive tour for Ireland AND impact the provinces in the URC. Not saying you, but 1 or 2 seem to be minimising that.
    2. We don’t need to know the aim to have a reasonable guess at what the outcome for the provinces is likely to be. Given the tier of player the tour seems to be aimed at, it’s not unreasonable that the likes of Hume, Lowry, Stockdale, Baloucoune, Doak, Timoney, Treadwell, O’Toole and EOS could all be missing for an interpro v Leinster, say.

    The International game will always have primacy here, but imo it’s just a shame it’s at the expense of the domestic game when we seemed to be making strides in the right direction there recently.



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    #16951
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,358 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541379#Comment_119541379

    Ah everything is strawmanning on the internet now. Especially talk of trips to butlins.



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