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Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Must be a while since you were a first time driver? Insurance for new drivers starts at about 4 or 5 grand a year



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,434 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    I think you are over estimating the cost of running a car. There's lots of people who need a car, and then struggle to keep something on the road. But it's not going to cost 10k a year. My own costs are nowhere near that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    For a new driver it is especially with the cost of insurance



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,434 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Not everyone is a new driver though. I'm not sure why you think they are.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    When I worked on retail plenty of the staff on minimum wage or not much more than it had their own car. It was about 7 years ago. I still know of a few who work retail that own their own car.


    5k for insurance isn't what every young person pays. It's what you pay when you first start out. After a few years it will go down to a much more manageable level. Lots of even lower wage retail staff do 30+ hours a week as well.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Because there wouldn't be a lot of very experiencd drivers who are on minimum wage. So not everyone is a new driver, but the vast majority of minimum wage employees would be new drivers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Minimum wage workers in liffey Valley are likely to be young



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Once you start dealing with work locations outside of the city centre, there are far more reasons that people may need a car to get to/from work.

    The main one being, still, the fact that for many of them there will be no direct bus route, given the paucity of orbital bus routes.

    People may take jobs that are close to their parents, children’s schools etc., and any number of other reasons, that might require at least two buses in either direction. And yes, they could be commuting from Clonee and dropping children off at their parents en route to avoid childcare costs.

    It is far less black and white than in the case of someone working in the city centre and I think you are being rather simplistic in your assessment of people’s commutes.

    Liffey Valley undoubtedly has improved connectivity along the N4 corridor since the launch of the C Spine but even that isn’t finished. There are large parts of the western Lucan that still have no regular bus other than the very limited hourly L51 & L52 and for those in some parts of Shackleton or along Adamstown Boulevard, a regular bus can be a reasonably long walk away.

    The lack of orbital bus routes in Dublin is a big problem right now, and implementing changes such as this before they have been fully rolled out and, more importantly, bedded in, which is probably a bit short-sighted. Given that the bus companies cannot resource existing services, I have serious doubts about the speed of rollout of the future ones. Even allowing for that, the planned W4 frequency across the toll bridge of every 15/30 minutes is ridiculously low.

    I would also say that the inability of GoAhead to deliver anything close to a reliable service across their network would put me off relying on them to get to/from work, especially when frequency is less than every 15 minutes, and even more so where a change of bus is involved.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd bet my bottom dollar there are staff in liffey valley who are not first time drivers but who are on minimum wage or close to it. cleaning staff, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,130 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    There are minimum wage jobs pretty much everywhere these days. I never had a car when I was younger, I don't even have one now, but I'd just try and get a job somewhere that I could get to without a car, if I was in that situation.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i cycle around north county dublin a lot and you do see a few of 'the new irish' on e-scooters in certain places; and as often as not they're heading for nursing homes of fruit and veg distribution places. e.g. keelings just north of the airport; where there's no public transport (unless keelings operate a staff bus, i'm not aware of one, but maybe i'm coming from the wrong direction), wages will not be high, and commuting along those roads on dark winter evenings, on bikes or scooters, would not be for the faint hearted. a lot of those people would need a car to get there, and wouldn't necessarily be brand new drivers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I think my point is misunderstood. I never said that all people on min wage are new drivers. I said that the vast majority of staff are local young wans and young fellas. Given their age, likely place of residence, the cost of car insurance etc. The majority are unlikely to be car owners. Yet the Indo article doesn't talk about how the works will improve pt and cycling access for this majority of staff. Instead they pick a moan story from a presumably more senior staff member about a car journey to an un named meath village that will become marginally more expensive.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's an interesting, and slightly canny, pricing structure. compare it to how (IIRC) the pavilions in swords operates. there, the first hour is free, it then they start charging; which is a common enough system. so if (as i've done myself) you're wandering around the place, and then realise 'if i stay another 10 minutes, i'll be charged' you then leave.

    charging for the first hour and then the next two are free (or, if you want to look at it this way, it's €2.50 for the first three hours) means you're not going to have the same impetus on people to leave.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Keelings have two commercial bus routes to their premises.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    cheers, i clearly missed that so! does it run between swords and finglas?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Going back to Liffey Valley - the issue I have primarily is the timing.

    Announcing the implementation of parking charges before the full set of new orbital bus routes are implemented and bedded in is daft.

    The G Spine actually reduces the number of buses serving the shopping centre.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd also be curious as to whether there had been any agreement with the tenants prior to now about use of spaces for staff; you'd think they'd be interested in how many people might have been using liffey valley as a park'n'ride stop on the way to the city centre, and if they were keeping an eye on that, how would they distinguish between that and staff members parking?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,654 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, if you noticed, parking in the CC will still be available for delivery vans - perhaps with restricted times.

    Would not fancy taking a washing machine on the bus myself, or a fridge for that matter, but most companies expect to deliver such items.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I would say the list is slightly wrong. 2 can come higher than 1 if you're ruthless enough 8n application. Look at Oslo, no through car movements at all and all on street parking abolished, the result is 100% effective, congestion is gone. Then look at cities that have congestion charging, over time the cost is absorbed and your back to square one and it quickly becomes a class issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,643 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I doubt the two things are connected — back when Liffey Valley was looking to expand, I remember them getting planning pushback about the fact that they weren't addressing traffic issues. So I would be nearly certain they introduced paid parking as a way to get permission for their expansions (which would be the "local authority guidance" they mention in the article).

    I would imagine the B&Q, Tesco, and Retail Park car parks will remain free to use, which will be interesting. I wonder if we might see a few drivers suddenly willing to walk more than the length of themselves?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The funny thing is when they are in the shopping centre they are more than willing to walk several laps of the full thing, LV is about half a km long plus the walking distance from whatever province of narnia they've managed to find a space in out in the main car park



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    may be of interest to folks here; though many of the issues mentioned don't apply in ireland (e.g. right turn on red); but the subscription model for red light cameras seems another major flaw.




  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The housing crisis forced myself and my wife outside Dublin and we both had to learn to drive as a result.

    They can put as many tolls and parking charges in place as they want and we'll just have to pay it.

    We don't have a choice.

    The vast majority in cars don't want to be in cars.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,654 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    That is an argument for better PT and plenty of P&R so cars can be driven part of the journey then parked while the rest of the journey is on PT. The P&R locations need to be well chosen to give commuters choice so if one is full, there is another one further on.

    Plus reduce PT fares.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,995 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    "Anti renter" clamping in Cedarview (Northwood) pushed back til October.

    From the article:

    In an email to residents, Occu, the company that manages rental properties in the estate owned by the German fund DWS, said large numbers of cars parked on the streets and corners in the estate were “causing obstruction and creating a serious danger to life”.

    The company said the local OMC had informed it of a recent incident where a child was hit by a car in the housing estate.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2022/08/31/introduction-of-anti-renter-clamping-in-north-dublin-estate-delayed/



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As someone pointed out before, there isn't an estate in the country that could accommodate 4 cars per household.

    It may be an "anti-renter" action as the mgmt company are following the lead of the OMC but I'd wager there's a few owners affected too. Either way its a good policy. Hopefully it might set a precedence for rollout in other places, especially those with good alternative options for travel



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I'm curious, do you think that the 'vast majority' statement is accurate sinply because it applies to you personally?

    Because all modelling and traffic surveys in the past 20 years or so have shown that the vast majority of car trips in Dublin are below 10km in length, with a significant minority of those trips being under 5km in length. Where does your 'vast majority' statement come from?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Park n ride alone is mostly a failure in attracting users and achieving mode shift. Once you're in your car there's no money or time saving to be had compared to just continuing to drive to city centre, that would only change if there was a congestion charge significantly higher than the public transport fare plus the parking fee.



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