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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    OK. What evidence links the deaths to the vaccines?

    Is there any evidence that links them?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    It is ukknown what the cause of death is in a large number of cases.

    That is not the same as "unknown" being the cause of death.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    And I'll ask again, if it is unknown what the cause of death is in a large number of cases, is that large number the largest number of deaths?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Who cares? Why does it matter?


    When/ if they have a number saying X condition was a cause of deaths then you might have something to be concerned about as to why X happened, if it hadn't happened previously... Maybe.

    You may as well be getting worried about the number of people who owned a pair of shoes who died. For now it is just a case of wait.

    If you want something to be concerned about then maybe the why it's taking time to establish the causes of death, rather than trying to make out that "unknown" is the final answer for those deaths.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Who cares? Why does it matter?

    It seems to matter enough to the posters on here arguing that the statement "the cause of the highest number of deaths is unknown" somehow means something different to "It is unknown what the cause of death is in the largest number of cases".

    Which is obviously total lunacy. But par for the course round here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But you keep ignoring the fact that there's no evidence at all linking those unknown deaths to the vaccines.


    If you had any such evidence you wouldn't have had to ignore the question.


    You are also once again playing semantic games to try and grasp at a straw.

    Unknown causes. Not one unknown cause.


    We also know that since you guys have been claiming that the vaccines have been causing things like myocarditis, we know that it can't be the vaccines as then the cause of death wouldn't be "unknown". It would be myocarditis or whatever.


    And again we know it can't be the vaccine because of the monitoring that goes into them, it would be apparent.

    Unless of course you're going to suggest that there's some sort of conspiracy hiding all of this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,168 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    This is a blatant misrepresentation of what has been posted.

    This is the text of what I have posted. The sentences have clearly different meanings.

    This is the Youtube claim:

    In Alberta, Canada, unknown cause of death is causing even more deaths than heart disease, strokes and diabetes combined.

    Note the word 'Causing'.

    The statement 'the causes of the deaths are unknown' does not have the same meaning as the claim.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Are you able to state clearly and without any ambiguity, exactly what it is that you believe is causing the deaths that are currently listed as having unknown causes of death?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Of course not. Much more convenient for them to just imply that it has something to do with the vaccines, but not directly claim that so they can avoid having to support the claim with evidence.


    "I'm not saying it's the vaccines, but it could be. We need to keep an open mind and see what happens."



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    The only point I made here was about the disingenuous fact checkers. That’s what I am objecting to:

    That's a classic example of fact check fuckwittery

    Headline is "No evidence rise in deaths due to unknown causes in Canada is linked to Covid-19 vaccines"

    Yet the claim they are actually factchecking is:

    In Alberta, Canada, unknown causes of death are causing even more deaths than heart disease, strokes and diabetes combined.

    Which appears to be true!

    i don’t know what is behind the unknown causes of death. Obviously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,168 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    All your posts are demonstrating is that you don't understand the difference between 'causing' (as in responsible for) versus 'recorded cause'? Or you do, and are being disingenuous yourself.

    It is simply false to say unknown causes are causing the deaths, when the investigation hadn't even happened.

    This is the actual fact check.


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    So what is the reason that drew you to the article on "In Alberta, Canada, unknown causes of death are causing even more deaths than heart disease, strokes and diabetes combined."?

    What are you concerned about with that statement and why bring it up in a thread about covid vaccines? Would seem to be that you are trying to link the two things together.

    If that's not what you were trying to do then why bring up some totally unrelated topic?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    It is simply false to say unknown causes are causing the deaths, when the investigation hadn't even happened.

    So what is causing the deaths? Nobody knows. But that’s not unknown causes?

    Is this similar to the difference between the disease caused by Coronavirus versus and Covid 19.

    or that mandatory vaccinations are not coercive because they are not compulsory?

    yet curiously insufficient data means the same thing as extremely comprehensive data?

    The Emperors New Clothes are the finest in the land.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Somebody else linked to it. why not ask them why they introduced it to the thread?

    i merely quoted it to point out that it’s a classic example of fact check fuckwittery .

    and humorously people have been arguing that the statement "the cause of the highest number of deaths is unknown" somehow means something different to "It is unknown what the cause of death is in the largest number of cases" ever since.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Yet you are the one posting about it in a covid vaccine thread, claiming that you are not suggesting any links to covid vaccines whilst also adding in vauge suggestions of some shadowy link to covid vaccines, but all the time denying that you are doing anything other than just asking questions.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Yes, here I am posting about it in reply to posters such as yourself who quote my posts and argue that the statement "the cause of the highest number of deaths is unknown" somehow means something different to "It is unknown what the cause of death is in the largest number of cases" ever since.

    I haven't added in any vague suggestion of some shadowy link to vaccines. This is becoming delusional now.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    So when you said "nothing to see here" what exactly did you mean?

    Were you posting in support of CQDs position that the excess deaths being listed as unknown were somehow linked to the vaccines, or is there some other meaning to what you posted?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Nothing to do with the Alberta Factcheck, which I deliberately quoted in a separate post to the "nothing to see here comment"

    That referred to this quote from Odyssey dismissing the excess deaths in England and Wales in which I quoted specifically his remark: 2022 has one of the lowest excess deaths of the century.

    And yet, from England and Wales:

    The year-to-date (January to July) Age-standardised mortality rates in 2022 was significantly lower than most years since our data time series began in 2001 (except for 2019 in England, and 2014 and 2019 in Wales) in both England (944.3 deaths per 100,000 people) and Wales (1,019.3 deaths per 100,000 people).

    So basically, when you adjust for demographic changes over times, and exclude 2020 -> 2022 has one of the lowest excess deaths of the century.

    This refers to England and Wales excess deaths, nothing to with the unknown causes being the largest number of deaths in Alberta.

    You ask: "Were you posting in support of CQDs position that the excess deaths being listed as unknown were somehow linked to the vaccines, or is there some other meaning to what you posted?"

    But you'll have doubt noticed the post of CQDs I quoted, what part of it indicates his position "the excess deaths being listed as unknown were somehow linked to the vaccines"?

    Aren't like 1400 extra people dying a week in the UK?

    That was the entirety of his post I responded to and quoted.

    What exactly I meant was it is extraordinary to exclude 2020 acknowledging it is an outlier and then say all is normal. The reason 2020 is excluded as an outlier is because there was a colossal increase in excess deaths because of Covid, the overwhelming majority of which were in the elderly.

    Covid brought a significant number of deaths in that demographic forward, which is precisely why you'd expect to see excess deaths very substantially lower this year.

    Except, since April we are not only seeing excess deaths significantly higher than the five year average baseline, we are seeing them significantly higher at exactly the time when they should be expected to be significantly lower.

    Whatever the causes of these excess deaths, brushing them off as 2022 has one of the lowest excess deaths of the century, nothing to see here, is absurd.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    OK. More pedantry and semantics.

    You agree though that CQD is wrong and there's no evidence for any link to the vaccines.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Makes vague suggestions that there is some conspiracy happening.

    Gets shown that their claims are nonsense.

    Denies that they ever made any claim and were only ever talking about grammar and spelling errors.

    Switches to some other vague claims about a conspiracy they won't explain, but is linked to some headline that will soon end up being discussed at length about the spelling and grammar or use of the wrong terms, but will end up denying that conspiracy after another couple of pages.


    I'm sure there is a grammar nazis forum somewhere which might be more suited.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Yea. The claim has switched from the vaccines causing all of theses deaths and now seems to be that they're covering up covid deaths again and saying the causes are unknown.


    Course if we ask if this is what's being claimed, it will be denied.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lads, whether ye like it or not the vaccines are an unknown variable that were introduced to the population..They obviously weren't tested properly..they obviously didn't do what they were supposed to..There is a possibility there were adverse effects..It might take a few years for these things to wash out, but maybe hold off on being quite so definitive on what happened here..

    There was no mention of covid causing heart issues, or some of these other possible (vaccine) side effects until the vaccines did..There are many powerful vested interests here that want to ensure that if they were to blame, it doesn't come out..Give it time..

    Just trying to catch people out on semantic bullsh1t is stupid..



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But lads, you were claiming that there was a link to these deaths and the vaccines.

    Do you have any evidence for this? Yes or no? If yes, provide it.


    If no, and you are backpeddling to "we can't know yet" then please explain why you were posting the links.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,168 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    2022 has one of the lowest excess deaths of the century so far based on the age adjusted ONS data for England and Wales.

    If the excess deaths for April onwards are so high, the early year figures must have been historic lows. Has that been shown?

    Were the excess deaths for January to March 2022 lower because of covid deaths in 2020?

    Or were vulnerable people \ society still taking precautions \ supressing covid (and implicitly other infectious diseases) and society has now fully opened up and risks have returned?

    Increases in excess mortality versus the previous baselines need to be age adjusted or they are too crude.

    So are 1400 extra people dying versus the age adjusted baseline?

    And how many of them are due to covid?

    And how many of them are due to heatwave? ONS data shows 6% increase in deaths on heatwave days.

    So what's the actual unaccounted for excess?

    And given that this is the Covid vaccines thread, I will make the general point that there is no correlation between vaccination rates and the reported increases in excess mortality. It does not explain the differences between Ireland, Norway, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany, Poland, Finland, Portugal, Spain etc

    As the figures below do not appear to be age adjusted, the real increase is likely to be less than stated.


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭kernkraft500


    Post edited by kernkraft500 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,988 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Whether it's "Covid is conspiracy", or "restrictions are forever" or "the vaccines are dangerous" it's the exact same toolbox of pedantry, semantics and mental gymnastics each time.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


     @hometruths would you consider @[Deleted User] 's points as reversionism?

    Reversionism? No I wouldn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Lol. You know what he means. You're avoiding the question because you're not allowed to disagree with your fellow conspiracy theorist.


    Any luck finding that evidence that links the unknown deaths in Canada to the vaccines? Or are you ditching that point now too?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭kernkraft500




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