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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭fash


    It's weird the way the Americans keep putting their oh-so-important bio-labs in countries that Russia threatens to invade - & they keep them & the material there there even when certain that Russia will invade.

    I'm just imagining the conversation somewhere in the US:

    "Hey Bob, where should we set up this bio-lab- and remember, the last time you suggested we set up in Crimea and the time before that in Georgia and the time before that in Moldova and times Russia invaded and took them every time- this time we really need somewhere secure"

    "Hear me out, hear me out- Russia will never think to invade Ukraine - a second time, I mean, we should definitely put it there, they'd never find it"

    [Months later]

    "Goddammit Bob, this is the 4th time - you're fired"



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    I'm constantly amazed at the mental gymnastics performed by some posters to explain away any US or Ukrainian dodginess as Russian propaganda.

    Victoria Nuland admitted they exist to congress and then proceeded to say that she is worried that the Russians will use them against the Ukrainians. If the US/Ukrainian labs weren't producing biological pathogens that could be used as weapons why would they be worried that the Russians could use them as such?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    @bobowen It's been debunked. Drop it and move on.

    The charter states:

    "Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned."



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    A a mod instruction is just that. It is not an invitation to continue that line of discussion or to start complaining about moderation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Hahaha.

    I'm posting the facts not make believe.

    If you have a problem take it up with the mods .



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It was confirmed earlier Russia has Lost over 60% of it's entire tank fleet in Ukraine,in 7 months of the invasion,the biggest tank losses by a military since WW2 and to think it's not an actual war according to the Russians , just to compare America lost less than 15 tanks in combat in 20 years from the invasion of iraq and Afghanistan despite American forces facing daily combat for two decades



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,326 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Still got the source for that? That's a truly astonishing amount. Is there any sense of Russian factories trying to restore the losses .

    And Russia are lucky their Eastern & Southern borders don't have as hostile neighbours as they themselves prove to be: 'cos it's getting to the point a belligerent nation would begin to consider expansion into Russia, and fancy its chances n' all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭paul71


    I would say more than "fancy their chances". The Pakistani, Indian or Chinese armies would cut through the joke that is the Russian army like a knive through butter. They are quite lucky that the Taliban are there to protect them from Pakistan.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,326 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Is that a realistic geopolitical scenario though? We're long past the days of wars over royal succession et al: unless there's some runway for a Reverse Russia, and they're invaded by a hostile power looking to "protect" a phantom oppressed community, I don't see Russia's neighbours licking their lips.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Former US naval seal and conflict correspondent .

    To expand on your question, Russia has always relied on using the other occupied countries in former Soviet union to build and repair it's vehicles and aircraft,but since the Fall of the Soviet union and the Baltic states becoming independent and members of Nato, they have lost all access to these countries military industries,and they never replaced themselves, they can rely on Belarus for some stuff but for how much longer is anyone's guess,

    And yes Russia can build its own tanks which to replace their current losses could take decades in the current economic situation,all the while everyone else is modernising their defense abilities Russia is relying on designs from the 60s and 70s ,

    They have been talking about the T14 armata tank for 20 odd years ,the most feared and deadly tanks ever conceived(their words) yet in that time they built 6 and lost to anti tank missles in Syria,they also happen to cost similar to the American F35 jet .



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  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    One former Navy Seal writing for a Pro Ukrainian publication is not proof.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    According to Oryx, an online investigative project documenting equipment losses in Russia’s war, Russia has lost at least 994 tanks as of Sept. 1.

    However, according to estimates by the Conflict Intelligence Team, an independent Russian online armed conflicts monitor, the Oryx database covers nearly 70% of the total equipment lost in combat by both sides, as it includes only fully-verified losses -- not every single captured or destroyed vehicle is pictured and documented.

    Based on these estimates, Russia has lost nearly 1,300 tanks – an impressive 40% of its total operational tank fleet.

    ...

    Official figures provided by Ukraine’s military are higher. As of Sept. 1, six months into Russia’s full-scale war, Ukraine has reportedly knocked out 1,997 Russian tanks, which is nearly 60% of Russia’s operational tank fleet. 

    3rd parties verify at least 1000, or up to 1300. Ukrainian DoD claim 2k, which is a stretch

    That former US navy seal just retweeted it, and had nothing to do with the article.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I know which I don't believe .

    And which I've been following the losses since day one .

    Ukraine actually has more tanks than it started with 7 months ago .

    From your own article.

    "This list only includes destroyed vehicles and equipment of which photo or videographic evidence is available. Therefore, the amount of equipment destroyed is significantly higher than recorded here."


    Therefore, the amount of equipment destroyed is significantly higher than recorded here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    ahem

    However, according to estimates by the Conflict Intelligence Team, an independent Russian online armed conflicts monitor, the Oryx database covers nearly 70% of the total equipment lost in combat by both sides, as it includes only fully-verified losses -- not every single captured or destroyed vehicle is pictured and documented.

    Based on these estimates, Russia has lost nearly 1,300 tanks – an impressive 40% of its total operational tank fleet.

    From your article. The only source for 1999 tanks is the Ukrainian MoD who of course will be biased, just as the Russian MoD is the same. The independent 3rd parties verified 1000 gone, and then based on estimates of what they could not verify push that number up to 1300.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    This list only includes destroyed vehicles and equipment of which photo or videographic evidence is available. Therefore, the amount of equipment destroyed is significantly higher than recorded here."

    What part is difficult to follow ,

    Equipment destroyed is significantly higher than is recorded,so your Taking one piece of opinion and another then saying it's only this percent,

    Despite the article saying the losses are significantly higher.

    Your clearly trying to find something here



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Re-read your own article, I quoted it verbatim. Its really very simple.

    The Oryx database has verified ~1000 destroyed vehicles/tanks, with the caveat that many more are likely undocumented and cant be verified. The 2nd group "Conflict Intelligence Team", estimate that Oryx database is only 70% of the destroyed, and that a further 30% are unverifiable due to lack of photo/video evidence.

    Hence, approx 1300 destroyed/damaged.



  • Registered Users Posts: 925 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    Apparently caused by sailors smoking near sensitive equipment or munitions, just like the stray cigarettes that caused the disaster at the Saky airforce base. It's been reported that a pack of cigarettes was found in Ravil Maganov's room. Coincidence? I think not!

    Post edited by ilkhanid on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,455 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Sure. Just like they held Afghanistan. Taking and holding are two different thing's. Putin has given it his best shot, and now he is scraping the bottom of the barrel in every sense, resorting to shelling from a distance and conscription. By next year, he will be in an even weaker position both militarily and economically, and Russians will start turning against him in increasing nrs when the full effects of the sanctions have kicked in, and the cash from the west dry's up as they will no longer be dependent on his oil / gas. For sure I would not be sharing your optimistic outlook for next year, on the contrary, I think that it will be a very bad year for him.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Remind me again how well the US and their allies held Afghanistan? Oh that is right. They spent 2 trillion dollars to replace the Taliban with an even more heavily armed Taliban while at that same time murdering innocent civilians.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It was your article I quoted .

    The losses are significantly higher than posted according to your article which you then said it only equates to 40% ,

    I haven't seen any experts on the ground say it's only 40 % ,

    so far only you



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    The only country I can think of that would want some Russian territory is China.

    I bet they'd love Vladivostok back, yet I don't think any one is stupid enough to launch an invasion of Russia.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think Finland, Georgia, and Ukraine would like their sovereign territory, taken by Russia, back.

    Kaliningrad might go into play as well.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,683 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't think Finland holds much of a latent desire to take back the Karelian isthmus. Whatever about Crimea, talk of internationally accepted sovereign Russian territory being re-appropriated is a bit silly.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, yes.

    It is nearly no longer in living memory, but given the chance .....



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,843 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Some parts of the Russian Federation may push for independence if Russia is sufficiently weaked. It could shrink a (tiny) bit without any invasion.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see China pushing for Vladivostok. They had their bluff called on Taiwan recently and didn't do anything, and the rest of the world is fairly united against invasions now, particularly anywhere west leaning, so can see them focusing elsewhere. They have domestic problems too so a nice flag-waving distraction could be nice for them. They'd have Russia over a barrel, if they threatened to stop buying Russian resources and stop selling Russia all sorts of things, Russia would have nowhere to look.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I went and watched a few videos from that YouTube channel last night.

    Yeah that's not objective or even fact based. Basically the guy is taking "Russian sources" or the word of the Russian Ministry of Defence and just uncritically taking it as gospel. In every instance he's amplifying Ukrainian losses, minimising Russian defeats and basically staying on Kremlin message

    There are other clues too. On each video he has a series of links. One of which is this google drive spreadsheet.


    Two things you will notice if you open that up:

    1. It's titled "Results of Special Military Operation", i.e. the official approved Kremlin term for it that nobody outside of Russian uses
    2. This "results" spreadsheet has a tab for "UA losses" but doesn't track Russian losses at all (not very objective for an "analysis" channel)

    Also the comments are chock full of people cheerleading for Russia and reveling in the supposed defeat of the Ukrainians (with particular bile being reserved for Zelensky)


    Long story short. This is a channel for people who want to get their Russian propaganda with a veneer of analysis. It should not be used as evidence for anything though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    I don't see it happening. That would basically be an "existential threat to the Russian state" which is one of their criteria for using nuclear weapons. I think the Chinese are playing the long game with the far east. There has been a large migration of Chinese to the region. Give it a few generations and they might perhaps have the numbers for an "independence" movement.

    As for the various Republics pushing for independence currently - most of them have been heavily russified. The only ones I could see making a push for it would, maybe, be some of the states in the Caucuses. That could only happen if Moscow was extremely weak and I don't see that happening any time soon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    There's been an ever growing Chinese population in Siberia, with locals saying the numbers far exceeds whats being officially recorded last year local officials raised concerns china could do a putin and place Chinese troops on the ground to protect their citizens and migrant workers ( pure paronia) from the local officials



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭amandstu


    Just what we need

    A Russo-Sino conflict.


    We would not be spared the fallout.



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