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Westmeath school gets temporary injunction banning a suspended teacher from it's premises

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It is saying a lot about the posters that they agree with him that they don't seem to give a **** about how difficult it must have been for the affected student. He literally went on a rant in front of the school which pretty clearly indicates he doesn't care about their well being.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I just put it out there because the bible has a lot of dodgy stuff in it that Burke could use in his favour. I referred to Sodom and Gomorrah because of the perhaps tenuous connexion to non-standard sexuality, if I could put it that way.

    For myself, I'm completely catholic about the matter - you can do anything that's not illegal as far as I care.

    The Anglicans doubtless have rules, and this is not just any school, but a diocesan school, which I imagine means it has to be seen to uphold all the CoI rules, beliefs and the like. So if Burke has read the rules and found something to back his stance up (I've no idea whether he has or hasn't) the school could find itself in a difficult place.

    I'm just theorising here, ok?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,416 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    I'd say there's Lads closer to God and Jesus's message in the Joy than the Burkes

    All Eyes On Rafah



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s early days- wouldn’t be surprised if the sister made an appearance in a legal capacity - of course it won’t be a circus - travelling or otherwise- this is the High Court- they don’t take to kindly to interruptions

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/sacked-solicitor-ammi-burke-has-unfair-dismissal-case-thrown-out-amid-repeated-interruptions-by-her-mother-41512291.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    It's a diocesan school, so yes the ethos has to be that of the CoI. If it was just the local parish school, they might get away with what you suggest but a diocesan school will be held to a more rigid standard. At least I'd guess Burke would make that argument - and as we know he has a lawyer in the family!



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  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why would you throw away your career? Is he independently wealthy? Bored teaching? Launching a political career and needs upfront publicity?

    It’s bizarre. You know, I know, Ireland knows, that the way he’s gone about this is just so not the right way- he’s an intelligent guy- he’s got “ologies”😂-reminds me of the Wogan phrase- “they’re not laughing with you, they’re laughing at you. “



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Second member of the family to away their careers in a matter of months... They're full on brainwashed and clearly he never broke out of that mindset tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,415 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Why do you think the CoI take everything in the bible literally?



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    But schools have completely changed since the 1990s so your theorising is irrelavent

    The Wilsons School policy specifically even acknowledges/mentions transphobic bullying whsantibullyingpolicy2022.pdf (wilsonshospitalschool.com)

    Post edited by Annasopra on

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    I'm guessing you mean the likes of Mr Burke who caused a scene, harassed his boss, trespassed, ignored a court order and got himself thrown in jail; over something that impacts very, very little on him. If that's not anchoring undue amount of importance over a pronoun, then I don't know what is.


    Or shall we consider the belief system that led to Mr Burke's tantrum?

    In Genesis, God created Man and Woman as God created Land and Sea. There is no mention of rivers here though. He also made the sun to govern day, and the moon and stars to govern night. No word of them appearing in the sky together. In the same verse as creating man and women, the Bible talks of how we should rule over fish in the sea, and birds in the sky. Yet mentions nothing of flying fish, river fish, or birds that dive into the water, or non-flying birds, or birds that swim.

    Not to mention the sheer amount of times names get changed in the Bible. Even Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter, and God had changed Sarah and Abraham.

    Or how about in Galatians where they straight out just say there is no longer male and female, only one.


    If I were to say that it's "all nonsense and some are just choosing to anchor more importance and reverence to some of it than the rest", I'm not sure it would be those living their life with basic manners.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Much has been written on they, and we aren’t going to attempt to cover it here. We will note that they has been in consistent use as a singular pronoun since the late 1300s; that the development of singular they mirrors the development of the singular you from the plural you, yet we don’t complain that singular you is ungrammatical; and that regardless of what detractors say, nearly everyone uses the singular they in casual conversation and often in formal writing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    "She said any refusal to address persons by their preferred gender or new name would constitute discrimination on gender grounds."

    I'm not so sure it does. Unless the court can prove that one can self assign ones gender?

    I would imagine that Burke has a stronger case for discrimination on religious grounds.

    His religious beliefs are protected by Equality Legislation but I'm not sure that the students beliefs are.

    They are a strange family of religious zealots. They must find it very difficult to navigate through the modern world.

    A bit of he said, she said...but the sister of a colleague has a friend who has a child in said school. Burke teaches the child German. The child has nothing but praise for Burke - in relation to the teaching of the subject. If true, it would seem that he can function normally but goes off the deep end on matters of faith.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,440 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Early days yet….who I’d funding these people is these people, one has to ask.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,574 ✭✭✭jackboy


    I don’t think the religious angle will work for him as it would be very difficult for him, if not impossible, to link his gender views to his religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Did I say that?

    My point is that Burke is likely to use the bible to back his actions up, and as this is a diocesan school it might find itself getting tangled up in knots. Can't you just see them in court:

    "Yeronner, the bible is the very basis of our beliefs, but we don't actually believe any of it" or

    "Yeronner, we believe everything in the bible but none of it is relevant to real life"



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,415 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Well no. Im sure the burkes have their own very literal interpretations of the bible but if the CoI do not share those interpretations why would they accept them? Are the Burkes even CoI?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Good point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I think the School principal and board would have proper legal advice on these issues.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555


    Pretty much agree with almost everything you said here, except the last part, just because someone is a stranger doesn't mean I would find the strangers feelings irrelevant, but in saying that, whenever I open my mouth to talk I could potentially pee someone off, who knows, offence is in the mind of the beholder. I will never use plurals to refer to a single person, I respect someone's right to ask me, but I, in turn, should be respected for declining if respect is what all of this is really about, I suspect not though, most of this usually seems rather self centred to me. This guy Burke, I have no idea who he is, many people on here seem to and seem to limit themselves to make judgment based on personality, he seems to have have expressed his objection in a less than ideal way, however his reasons were not misguided, backward or disrespectful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,489 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Since July 2015, transgender people in Ireland can self-declare their gender for the purpose of updating passports, driving licences, obtaining new birth certificates, and getting married.

    On 15 July 2015, the Oireachtas passed the Gender Recognition Act 2015 which permits an Irish citizen to correct their gender on government documents through self-determination. The law does not require any medical intervention by the applicant nor an assessment by the state.

    If the child/guardian/parent can assign a gender on a Government document, do you think a Court will deny that right in a school?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Good questions, and very relevant. I don't have any answers of my own, but as far as the CoI is concerned, they have a website, https://www.ireland.anglican.org

    I'd direct you to the relevant pages of the Anglican website. This first one is a little coy about their actual beliefs:

    What we believe

    We are disciples of Jesus Christ, worshippers of God the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and subscribers to the Creeds of the early Church. (there is more)

    Luckily for us, they have a series of pamphlets on the website, including this one on the Bible:

    The Bible

    1. What is the Bible?

    The Bible is a collection of texts in two parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. .....

    The biblical texts provide a ‘normative record of the authentic foundation of the faith. To these the Church has recourse for the inspiration of its life and mission; to these the Church refers its teaching and practice.’ (there is more)

    God only knows what all of that really means though. I'd guess they aren't actually committing to anything too strongly, but still Burke could probably make an argument based on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    I'm not sure how much his beliefs are protected when he wasn't facing consequences for his beliefs. He hasn't been suspended, and then arrested because of his beliefs. He was suspended for the circus he made and the harassment of his boss, then made it worse by continuing to show up at the school, which led to a court order, which he then ignored, and was subsequently arrested. The fact he didn't want to call a student by a certain name/pronoun is fairly irrelevant in what happened after. If anyone did that in their place of work, for any reason, they'd face similar consequences.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No. He was being completely and utterly disrespectful of the pupil. Refusing to agree to the pupils request is completely disrespectful to the pupil. Discussing the pupil in public is completely disrespectful to the pupil. Discussing the manner adversarially publicly is disrespectful to all concerned - the entire school, the staff, the parents and the pupils. Nothing at all in his actions was respectful.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    A child/parent/guardian cant do that no. The GRA currently only applies to over 18s and only over 16s subject to court order

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,489 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    I may have missed it, do we know the age of the student. The report said the 6th years walked out in protest, I took it that it was a 6th year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Not sure how any of this relevant when Wilsons school anti bullying policy explicitly recognises trans students and transphobic bullying

    whsantibullyingpolicy2022.pdf (wilsonshospitalschool.com)

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,018 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    Family of loopers. Zero respect for anyone and well known for being nothing but trouble in Mayo. The amount of loons on Twitter supporting this vile man is unbelievable. Just goes to show how stupid some people really are.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The irony here is that the school may never have to address the key question around Religious beliefs and transgender- there’s a very good chance that his behaviour overall is enough to get him sacked - it certainly would be in most workplaces.

    At some point he may have to the. take a case to the high court- if you’re going to do that with any realistic chance of success you’re going to have to hire a barrister - ka-ching!!!!

    And even then, the stated reason of his dismissal may not even mention transgender beliefs and may simply concentrate on his behaviour - checkmate.

    What he’s done and what he’s doing make no sense- he won’t get the outcome he’s looking for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    It sounds like the CoI allows the school a lot of leeway with regards to what it can say is its ethos, and they're declining to get involved.

    The standard seems to be tolerant of transgender children though, so Burke is a goal down morally. Legally, it's not a trans issue.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would be surprised if the principal wasn't well advised of path to follow as regards this issue to cover themselves


    Otherwise,he'd have the union out by now to defend him



This discussion has been closed.
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