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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    If only people had said being addicted to Russian gas was a bad idea from the start. Germans said ofc it's not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just been reading a bit about the Shannon LNG proposal and had a question. Purely technical / procedural….not a pro / con should it go ahead question

    my understanding is that this is out of the government’s hands and is a purely An Bord Pleanala decision. And that the Project of Common Interest component of the application was withdrawn, so the state’s energy security can’t be part of the argument for the terminal.

    An Bord Pleanala are completely independent though are supposed to take government policy into account in their decision making. But in this case there is no clear government policy.

    So am I correct that this is being decided (potentially this week) on purely commercial / safety / environmental grounds, with no consideration of energy security on the one side or a green agenda on the other? Just like a shopping mall or housing development (though obviously more complex)



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    It's critical infrastructure that needs to be legislated for. ABP is dodgy as we have seen now vested interests. We have no idea now if they are impartial.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I know that, but the decision this week is supposedly purely an impartial ABP decision with the state’s energy security specifically off the table. That’s my understanding….just wondering if I had that wrong



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I'm sure the minister for Energy could legislate for it. I mean they approved gold and silver mining did they not. 😀



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m sure he could….but again, was just asking if I’m right that the decision this week is purely an impartial one by ABP



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,576 ✭✭✭obi604


    Anyone know why they are shutting down the wind farm in Galway? (In the middle of an energy crisis)

    I think it has about 70 wind turbines. Not sure if it’s a planning permission issue or a health and safety issue or something else



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    End of life ? Company seeing the writings on the wall when EU decouples gas from electric price ? I have mused about this. There will be a huge flight if that happens.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Well you don’t take flak till your over the target 🤨



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Ohhh do explain to us going from record profits to being on the breadline who will stay in the market. This should be good. Have you any idea the maintenance cost of these turbines. Are you suggesting a company will not do what's best for the shareholders now ? I would not really be surprised a good amount of these companies are shells for Fossil fuel companies getting tax write offs.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Google Derrybrien for the full story

    tldr version

    • built badly in bad location without proper checks and analysis done
    • caused massive landslide
    • EU fines totalling 15 million or something like that
    • ESB tried for retention planning, failed
    • whole thing going on 20 years


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,576 ✭✭✭obi604




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    Local politics aside, there is a major tectonic shift in the world, it's being split in two, the globalisation we have known since the collapse of the Berlin wall is breaking down. This caught my eye today, the sanctions against Russia have backfired. I'm not getting into the rights and wrongs of the war, there is another thread for that.

    SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunications) is a payment system that allows banks across the globe to send messages and communicate securely and instantly about cross-border payments. China has its Cross-Border Interbank Payment System (CIPS) and now that Russia has been kicked out of SWIFT, CIPS is going to be the option for that country into the future. What has a payments processing system got to do with Green policies, nothing directly. Did you ever hear of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO)? Maybe not, just note there is an alternative trading network to any dependent on Europe.

    We have a situation whereby ourselves in Europe need energy, but are cut off by one of the largest suppliers of fossil fuels, neither is this a cause for celebration for the Greens, most of the solar panels come from China. Want to open a lithium mine in Europe? guess again. Most of the worlds Lithium, batteries are made in China, Japan & South Korea.

    The United States is facing an internal civil conflict developing over the course of the rest of the decade, it can support the proxy war in Ukraine for the moment, that cannot continue beyond the next election cycle (2024, Putins term is also up) . President Putin is also in a bind, The Russian governing elite cannot lose, neither can they win, they can drag this out, possibly for years.

    What are European politicians options? Capitulation or take a more direct line of attack against Russia? Whether to admit their mistake or distract the attention of angry populations by sending us to war? What happens to the value of the Euro against the Dollar or the Rouble? What happens to that sovereign debt crisis the EU papered over via the ECB? The ECBs quantitative easing and negative interest rates have been played out since 2014. Who is going to buy up European sovereign debt? Quite a conundrum and way above my pay grade to resolve.

    Back to green policies. The EU launched the European Green new deal as their five year economic plan (2019-2024)

    The European Green Deal is also our lifeline out of the COVID-19 pandemic. One third of the 1.8 trillion euro investments from the NextGenerationEU Recovery Plan, and the EU’s seven-year budget will finance the European Green Deal.

    In the course of the plan they want to reduce energy consumption and food production in Europe. Nothing in that addresses the cost of living or inflation wrought by previous policies, in fact it exacerbates the current problems. That 1.8 trillion is why the establishment in Ireland are rowing in behind green policies, as you expect they want some of that action.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    So council houses on prepay metres who are getting heat pumps for free are now getting an alternative supply of electricity in case the tenants don’t top up the metre in winter and the heat pump freezes up.


    Councils panicking but all it will mean is free electricity for many people.

    More genius ideas from our greens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    An Bord Pleanala are completely independent though are supposed to take government policy into account in their decision making.

    Headline today in the Irish Independent : "Eamon Ryan doubles down on opposition to new Shannon gas facility, despite crisis in Ukraine"

    And that decision is potentially this week you say ?

    Sheer coincidence that Ryan has come out with that statement yet again this week. Nothing at all I`m sure can be construed from that other than he is simply expressing his own opinion. Nothing whatsoever to do with him being the government Minister responsible for energy where An Bord Pleanala are shortly due to make a decision on an energy related manner where they are supposed to take government policy into account.

    The man is shameless and absolute disgrace as a Minister who should be stripped of his portfolios for that attempted influence alone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    You must often choke on your own bullshit do you

    I'd advise you to learn how to read and do basic arithmetic before you start calling bullshit. First of all, the overall price increase from RESS 1 to RESS 2 was from €74.08 per MWh to 97.87 per MWh. That is a 32% increase, not 24% as you claim -- you obviously divided the numbers the wrong way round. Don't believe me? -- even the Irish Wind Energy Association, the mouthpiece for "Big Wind", says sheepishly that it's 32% and blames international commodity price increases:

    Apart from that, however, you didn't bother to read my original post. I didn't compare RESS 2 to RESS 1, I compared it to the average wholesale cost of Irish electricity for 2019. (That was the last "normal" pre-pandemic year, as prices fell even lower in 2020 due to lack of demand). The average RESS 2 cost is indeed 100% higher than that.

    So would you like to explain how onshore wind, now a mature technology with decades of track record, still has to cost a multiple of energy prices from traditional sources? And before you tell me that it's now cheap compared to fossil-powered electricity -- the fossil fuel markets can be rebalanced if we take appropriate steps (such as getting Eamon Ryan to stop sitting on his hands and doing the necessary). Whereas the price of "free wind" is going up.

    Here's an article to help you out -- it's pro-Green and gives three possible explanations for the pre-war increase in fossil fuel prices, so I can't do fairer than that:

    The long and short of it is that the rush to renewables, and government and corporate ESG repudiation of fossil fuel investments, are starving the fossil fuel industry of funds for exploration and development. In effect, Green policies aim to make the cost of "cheap" renewables a self-fulfilling prophecy by massively increasing the cost of everything else. That's why I confidently predict that the cost of renewables is going to soar in future RESS auction rounds. High energy costs rapidly translate into inflation in every nook of the economy, since the price of energy underpins the price of everything ... including the commodities and supply lines on which renewables depend.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Indeed. But Michael Martin has been expressing the opposite view, though not as explicitly. So in the absence of government policy we effectively have ABP making decisions that affect our energy security (though energy security itself isn’t meant to part of the consideration)? We are a joke country, unless I am misunderstanding this



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    That's a GBP price, so 10k euros. How the hell can it be this expensive -- it's an insulated box with a heating element in it. The idea has been around for at least forty years, except what used to be called "a pile of hot bricks" is now apparently given the grandiose name of "a thermal core". Look it up -- it was called the GEC Nightstor -- loads of them installed in the UK in the 1980s, they're still being maintained by spin-offs of the original manufacturer who went broke. There's even a refurbished one on e-Bay for 700 quid. The reason they went broke was because electricity was so much more expensive than the natural gas network which was then starting to proliferate in the UK.

    I can tell you for nothing I wouldn't be shelling out 10k for a machine that needs an internet connection to the mothership for operation. Have seen too many internet-dependent things become expensive paperweights when their providers disappeared. Had a close shave with recently installed Hive heating controls. Hive is owned by Centrica, also the owner of British Gas and Bord Gáis, and last year simply cut off all their North American customers when they stopped marketing their controls there. (Long and wacky story -- I got caught up in it due to preferring an American Alexa accent to a British one).

    Oh yeah, and that connection to the mothership for ZEB incurs a 20 GBP/month "service charge". Completely outrageous. What's the bets their "artifical intelligence" for getting you the cheapest rate electricity actually shops you to suppliers who pay for your data in return for back payments to tepeo?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    That's a mental idea how much are they spending on retrofitting too. You can't just lob one in the wall and hope for the best.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Go educate yourself though I suspect it might be a challenge for you.

    Maven.



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    Once again, excellent points. I haven't seen a better analysis on many platforms let alone this one which i regard as a kinda pub+, hence my dubious use of language.

    One thing to add to your post: one should see the fall of the Berlin wall in context of the breakdown of Bretton Woods and the US lead world order (actually its more the other way around). US in retreat. Anyway, things perfectly explained by Peter Zeihan like here:

    i bought his book: 'the end of the world is just the beginning' afterwards.

    A good writer AND speaker.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Eamon Ryan on derrybrien after the bogs collapsed......

    Green Party spokesman Eamon Ryan said: "You can’t just go in and fast-track a project and not take into account whether it will affect the existing environment. That seems to be what happened here.

    "The local authority came out very strong in saying that the proposal wouldn’t work. An Bórd Pleanála, unfortunately, overturned that advice and allowed the project to go ahead."


    Eamon Ryan on offshore wind 2022

    Let's fasttrack everything and to hell with the planning


    what a hypocrite and bullshitter he really is



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I`m no defender of Michael Martin, but the view he expressed was not the opposite.

    He did not say he supported the private Shannon LNG terminal proposal. In fact he said he would not give support for any specific plan such as the Shannon LNG terminal. What he did say is that the Government will have to consider LNG project to address the energy crisis in Ireland.

    Just more two faced hypocrisy from Ryan and the green. We have a global crisis so little old Ireland should change our planning laws to allow more wind farms and solar farms to save the planet, yet LNG terminals are no way related to our energy crisis and Ryan, a government Minister, believes he is above a collective Government decision of the Shannon LNG and can go shoting his mouth off on his opposition to it attempting to influence a planning decision.

    If anyone his pulling the piss it`s Ryan and the greens making a mockery of collective Cabinet decision. Martin should sack the clown first thing tomorrow morning. Ministers have been sacked for less.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    This is complete nonsense. Fossil fuel producers love renewables. It guarantees dependence on gas-fired electricity forever.

    That battery storage you keep banging on about is not going to make you "able to turn off the last gas power plant". Battery storage is useful for peak shaving and frequency control services, and is economically viable in that role.

    Would you for once and for all be prepared to say how much battery storage you envisage being available, by what date and at what cost? Because I'd be prepared to bet that the amount of storage you need for fossils to become obsolete is NEVER going to arrive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭lumphammer2


    Just came across this thread ....

    Looking back from its start around this time last year ... the lights are going to go off and that was before this war situation etc. ....

    Are they such a thing as an energy crisis? or is it mere hype to up demand and up prices? Why do energy companies have to sponsor so much sport and charity ... asking us the pay higher bills to do so!!

    That war in Ukraine, those sanctions on Iran, Venezuela, etc., the disaster that is modern day Iraq ... yes all them have created a situation where the full potential of global energy is not realised.

    .... But other than that ... it is pure greed. Green policies are rushed but ultimately to get us to pay more taxes and buy EVs. Energy companies charge hefty fees and give some of them to sport and charity where the money makes others rich at our expense. From where I stand a lot of policies green or otherwise are destroying this and other countries ...

    PS: the lights did not go off last year. Scare mongering over Ukraine now, Covid/mass returning to normal using energy then, the weather all the time, something else next!!



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Honestly I don't think there's much chance of a decision this year on that project. They (ABP) went back looking for more info and got back several hundred pages of a response which they'll have to go through and they are not quick.

    I think it's likely it gets pushed back to Feb next year but we'll have to wait and see



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