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Westmeath school gets temporary injunction banning a suspended teacher from it's premises

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    You still don't understand that because of its position as a diocesan school it is somewhat special? It doesn't get to make its own rules independent of what the Church's position is (based on the bible by its own admission)?

    BTW you seem to think that I agree with all the skyfairy stuff - I don't. I'm merely pointing out that Burke has plenty of ammunition to fight back with.

    Whether you or I agree with him is not the point. It's the skyfairy stuff, you know?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Any religious chaplain would of course be a purveyor of the same nonsense at root as that which motivates Mr Burke. A “god” revealed truths of human existence which must be abided by. One of the many sillinesses of this episode is the way those who oppose Mr Burke endorse those who they imagine are motivated by a modern version of the same drivel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,018 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    This family are bullies. The parents are awful and their offspring are brainwashed.

    Don't forget, where there's 'religion' there's always money. Without a doubt these have benefactors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Burke will find a lot on the Anglican website to back up his stance, though. The whole matter is far from clear cut, as is usual with skyfairy stuff, but he'll be able to point to all sorts of stuff in the bible to at the very least obfuscate the issues.

    Not so much in relation to how he approached the principal, of course, provided there were witnesses.

    But I'd guess that the matter of contempt of court is most likely how he will be removed from his position, which leaves the substantive issue up in the air.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,489 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    And a school doesn’t get to decide if they need to follow equality legislation. Do you think this school, or any school could refuse tuition to a gay student because it was against their religious beliefs?

    In this case the school have clearly stated that their decision to recognise the child and parents wishes was grounded in equality legislation.

    I also think that given the amount of time that has passed since the initial confrontation, the school has had plenty of time to discuss this with the CoI, we can only assume that the school has their support, otherwise they are unlikely to have continued on their path to remove Burke.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It is not the exact same type of request.

    First of all, "Don Coreleone" is a name.

    "He/Him, She/Her, They/Them" are pronouns.

    A name is not a pronoun.

    Maybe start there.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    these things can drag on for a long time between due process and appeals etc it won’t be next week that it’s sorted



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,105 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Don't think the Burkes are fools, from what I've heard of them - all savvy and as well educated as many. As mentioned above, some indirect testimony that Enoch Burke is a capable teacher in the school.

    What do you do with people that have very strict personal constraints on what they believe in? Is it wrong to be a religious zealot and stand up for what you believe in, even if it costs you your job? As I mentioned above, we have teachers who refuse to teach relationships and sex education. We have many GPs who refuse to offer pregnancy termination services. Do they get fired and/or taken to court? No. So why is he different?

    The more I hear of this case, the more I think the school have handled it badly. If he's an otherwise capable teacher and they were aware of his views in this area, maybe they could have better avoided putting him in this situation. If there was a student likely to raise a cause celebre, they could have headed this off.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    how do you explain how he/she allegedly behaved throughout this debacle? If true, then he/she may well have a disciplinary case ahead of him/her that’s nothing to do with transgender or religious beliefs



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This. Mr Burke had an opportunity to test whether the school/CoI had considered its ethos and the implications for the transgender student. He has largely negated that in the current injunction hearing and there is great relief among many that it was never put to the test.

    The High Court today: “The judge said his concern was not with the fundamentals of the positions adopted by the parties.”

    Mr Burke may be in difficulty because of his actions after the initial objection but it would be good for the CoI and its school to have to formally advance its theological arguments in terms of ethos and inclusivity.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,279 ✭✭✭Ninthlife


    Putting aside the contempt of Court and some other issues is this an issue that could become more widespread

    The school cite equality legislation as their basis for granting the students wishes but that same legislation should protect the teachers religious belief

    An issue that could happen in any workplace in the future



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    i think youve failed to link any of your examples with this guy's behaviour and its something that a few ppl have failed to do on this thread.


    you'll find me in other threads where im deeply uneasy about a lot of the questions around trans ideology as it maps onto societal or online norms in the past decade.


    in *this* thread im puzzled why so many posters want to ignore this grown adult man's behaviour at work, which is the actual issue.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    By acknowledging the child’s transition and making appropriate allowances, do you not think that they (COL) HAVE formally stated their theological position ? Or are you just wishing for a theological arguement in a court of law?

    Not arguing with you, just wondering what you mean by that last sentence? What more should COL do?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,489 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Just to pick up on one misguided aspect of your post. GPs are private practitioners, so cannot be “fired”. The contract to provide terminations within the legislation is an opt in contract with the HSE, not an opt out, the Government allowed for conscientious objection to this very emotive treatment, for good reason. Those Doctors who work in hospitals where terminations are carried out within the legislation, and who are charged with doing so, would be removed from that post if they refused to do so on religious grounds. This is one of the reasons why there is such debate/unease about the building of the new maternity hospital on grounds owned by a religious order, and why the Government/HSE were at pains to assure the public that the religious order would not influence the treatments provided there.

    Hopefully you can now see what this particular part of your post is different from a teacher refusing to acknowledge the wishes of a child and their parent related to gender.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And again, his beliefs are not the issue, its how he reacted and his actions that resulted in his suspension and eventual jailing.

    Its important to remember that.

    You can believe whatever you want, but it does not allow you to harass your boss, interrupt events, hassle people etc



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm merely pointing out that Burke has plenty of ammunition to fight back with.

    When the issue at hand is his behavior, he really doesn't.

    If anything he's likely to lose his teaching license after all this is said and done, at the very least he'll be up in front of the teaching council for a disciplinary review



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,550 ✭✭✭thecretinhop


    Nuig education department. He fairly qualified as a teacher from there.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As I mentioned above, we have teachers who refuse to teach relationships and sex education. We have many GPs who refuse to offer pregnancy termination services. Do they get fired and/or taken to court? No. So why is he different?

    aaaaaand again, his beliefs are not the issue, its how he handled himself when the issue arose, see below

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119576066/#Comment_119576066

    If any doctor or other teacher acted the way he did it, rightly, their behaviour would be acted against through disciplinary processes



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,105 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    You trying to 're educate me'!!!!! So I see the error of my ways? :)

    I've instanced two other situations where professionals - teachers and doctors choose not to do certain things on the basis of their conscience and religious beliefs. I don't see any big palaver being raised about their situations - they manage to do this and the 'system' works about them or doesn't work about them. They don't get fired or suspended or taken to court.

    I'm not saying this chap is right or wrong. But he's certainly not unique in refusing to do certain things based on religious conviction. And can arguably expect to be treated similarly. Yes?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,105 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    He threw a 'tantrum' and argued the point with the principal?? You think this is a great sin??

    The man, whether you or I agree with him or not, is clearly exercised by the matter. At the very least I'd expect him to make a bit of a fuss if he thought he was being used as a cause celebre to prove some point of trans terminology.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,489 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Not trying to educate you, just showing you that as private practitioners, you can’t fire a GP for not opting in.

    If a hospital Doctor whose job it is to carry out terminations within the legislation refused to do so on religious grounds, contrary to what you think, they would be removed from their post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭walterking


    They are very sheltered. Very well educated, but life skills and accepting that people are different are non existent.


    I sincerely hope he enjoys his porridge tomorrow morning.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'll save you the trouble of going to the linked post above and I'll copy the relevant part here. After you read it tell me if you still think he made "a bit of a fuss" or went nutso

    ********

    Actually as a school teacher he is responsible for minors so keep that in mind. he also has responsibilities under the Equal Status Act and the only way he can avoid those is to leave his profession.

    As to the actual issue at hand, there's disagreeing with something in the workplace and then there's this....tantrum I think is the best word for it:

    • Following a meeting between the principal, a student and the student’s parents, where the principal was told the child wished to transition, the Principal held a meeting with staff to inform them of the details.

    According to papers filed in court, Mr Burke later told Ms McShane he could not agree with transgenderism and that “the demand” she had made should be withdrawn.

    However, the principal pointed out that the ethos of the school was inclusive, and that the welfare of students was paramount.

    Ms McShane told Mr Burke that it was also part of the school’s admission policy that it would not discriminate against a student on any of the grounds set out in the Equal Status Act.

    She said any refusal to address persons by their preferred gender or new name would constitute discrimination on gender grounds.

    An affidavit filed by board of management chair John Rogers outlined how Mr Burke refused to accept this and repeatedly raised the issue and clashed with the principal and the board.

    • Then in June

    Mr Burke interrupted a church service marking the school’s 260th anniversary in June.

    During the closing prayer, he is said to have stood up and spoke for between two and three minutes, demanding the request by Ms McShane be withdrawn.

    He claimed it was against the ethos of the school and the vision of its founder, Andrew Wilson, as well as the teachings of the Church of Ireland.

    The outburst prompted a walk-out by members of the congregation, including sixth-year students.

    • Following the church service there was a dinner function at which:

    Mr Burke approached Ms McShane and, in a “heated” manner, asked her to withdraw the request she had made to staff.


    Ms McShane said she was willing to speak to him, but this was not the appropriate place and she walked away from him. However, it is alleged he followed and continued to question her loudly. Mr Rogers said other people stood in between them to prevent the continuation of the questioning.

    Followed by

    • Suspended with pay on Aug 24th
    • Continued attending the school and refused to follow the suspension
    • Taken to court to get an injunction against him
    • Injunction against him given on Wed 31st Aug
    • Ignored the injunction on Thu 01 Sep
    • Ignored the injunction on Fri 02 Sep
    • Ignored the injunction on Mon 05 Sep
    • Arrested and taken to court.
    • Tells the judge he won't follow the direction of the court "He confirmed that if he was not jailed, he intended to turn up for work at the school tomorrow morning."
    • Ends up in a jail cell in Mountjoy

    So as I said, his beliefs are not the issue, its how he handled himself. You may wish to twist it to that narrative but thankfully all reporting I've seen so far has included almost all of the details outlined above which paint a very clear picture.

    Its also worth noting the principal expressed “serious concerns” about how Mr Burke might act in future. “These concerns extend to the student concerned and the entire student body,” she said.

    If he keeps going the way he is I'd say a hearing in front of the teaching council will be next at which point he's likely to lose his license to teach. Indeed it wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened for similar issues




  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Their website has almost 30 published policies

    The admissions policy explicity does not allow discrimination on gender or sexual orientation

    2022admissionspolicyforms2to6inclusive.pdf (wilsonshospitalschool.com)

    The anti bullying policy specifically mentions transphobic bullying

    whsantibullyingpolicy2022.pdf (wilsonshospitalschool.com)

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Doesn't seem to be anything in support of him rejecting transgender issues or being held in contempt ot court that I can see. He'd also have to prove that the CoI trumps the school ethos if there's a disagreement and effectively get the CoI to support him.

    The only way I can see him getting any ammo is if he says, "look, I went about it the wrong way, but the point was still valid" and then try and prove that transgender is against the CoI ethos. And I'm not even sure that that's doable.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Whatever happens, I think he's done teaching at that school



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s honey season now so the porridge should be nice 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,442 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Those Protestants. Up to no good as usual.

    It's not up to him to decide what someone else's name is. What would he do if this student changed their name by deed-poll? Would he refuse to call them by their new legal name?

    I've heard of a few fellas who had "Mary" as a second name. And some girls have what you might first assume are boys names.

    The attention-seeking eejit is locked up now for contempt. Not for anything that went before it. What he did before is irrelevant. Once the court tells you to do something or to refrain from doing something, you either obey or suffer the result.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,988 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject




This discussion has been closed.
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