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Lord of the Rings - [Amazon] *Spoilers*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,357 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    All the Robin Hoods and Excaliburs I have seen are different. Plenty of versions of Romeo & Juliet out there too. Bond has changed with every actor.

    It can be good or bad as a faithful adaptation also can be good or bad as a wild adaptation. There is no set rule as to what makes it good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭liamtech


    As i understand it, they have rights to the Lord of the Rings books, and thats it - so

    • The Fellowship of the Ring
    • The Two Towers
    • The Return of the King
    • Notes Appendix

    Having decided not to just Re-Do the trilogy, they have decided to do 'the second age' of Middle Earth - which is mentioned a few times in the main books, but is covered in notes in the Appendix - If that is all you have to go on - then Galadriel is

    • Lady of Lorien
    • Wielder of an Elvish Ring
    • Married to Celeborne since the first age (curiously absent from the show)
    • Powerful in Elvish Magic
    • Inspiring of great courage, and virtue
    • Member of White Council

    So, yea thats it - so this Warrior Galadriel is a fabrication of the show runners -

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,357 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    You would have to admit though (you won't) that the reaction and vitriol is different.

    BTW many people who don't like Disco including myself don't get called sexist. Just the ones bang on about "beta cucks" and Mary Sue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭liamtech


    there is no strict canon on Robin Hood - its a legend - as is Excalibur - thats why every one is entirely different

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    @Sudden Valley

    Hate just sells better on youtube unfortunately.

    The problem with YouTube is that you're appealing to certain people for clicks and therefore money. I wouldn't buy into anything these YouTubers have to say. They know their audience and they'll tailor their reviews/opinions thusly.

    I think the only ones I'd semi-regularly pay any attention to would be the "talentless hacks" on Red Letter Media, even if I don't always share their conclusions.

    Thing is, YouTube is all about monetising your videos these days and if you find an audience that will tip you, you're not going to piss them off.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,484 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    The elephant scene is floaty, weightless CG action at its absolute worst... but I do always laugh at Gimli's response afterward.

    Well, I say worst... The Hobbit found new nadirs.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There are films inspired by Shakespeare but are not presented as such.

    10 Things I Hate About You is a retelling of Taming Of The Shrew. It doesn't proclaim itself to be it though. Nor were critics, who did not like it, attacked for saying so.


    Bond was pulp, just like Bourne.


    Rings is not an adaption. It's retconning characters and events to suit the tale they want to tell.

    It wouldn't be drawing half as much ire, imho, if the main character was not Galadriel. Have her as an unknown "unlikely hero" and would have worked better



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    @liamtech

    Galdriel is the Lady of Lorien - bearer of a great Elvish ring, which she uses to preserve her kingdom - she inspires great courage, and stands against evil. She turns down the Ring of Power due to her inherent virtue - having her running around in body armor, screaming for vengeance at all costs is literary vandalism - they have taken someone angelic and virtuous and turned her into Red Sonja

    That's the Third Age. We have no real idea what she was up to 5000 years before that and neither did Tolkien either because he never really fleshed it out much. Elves live a long time. Who knows what 5000 years does to one of them?

    That doesn't mean that Galadriel couldn't have been written better, or at least better than what we've seen so far, which has been precious little in fairness.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The reaction is different because the net is far more wide spread. The studio went on the offensive early on attacking anyone voicing concern. Nice ad hominem twist with the "you won't" too.

    Legolas had his first silly moment halfway through the 2nd film. Not at the start.

    He also was not the main character. If Sam had done this, there would have been.


    Jackson's films have many flaws. Legolas moments, Gimli overly comic relief, Faramir not great, Ents not deciding to fight, and many other BUT the stayed close to Tolkien's vision.

    Hell they bloody merged Glorfindel into Arwen to give Tyler screen time. No massive outcry there, which you have to admit weakens your argument about outcry regarding Legolas (you won't...)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭liamtech


    With respect we do know much of Galadriel during the second age

    At the beginning of the Second Age, Celeborn and Galadriel dwelt for a time in Lindon, south of the Lune, while Gil-galad ruled in the north.[27] Both left Lindon before the years 10-20, when Gil-galad became king in that land, apparently thanks to her influence.[28] They entered Eriador and dwelt for a while around Lake Nenuial, being followed by many Noldor, Grey-elves and Green-elves. They were considered the Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador.[29]:234 Probably around S.A. 300,[note 3] Galadriel and Celeborn had a daughter: Celebrían.[16]

    Circa the year 500Sauron began to stir in Middle-earth again,[27] but his name was not known. He was, however, perceived by Galadriel, who noticed there was a controlling evil, and that it was spreading above the world, coming from the East beyond the Misty Mountains. She also thought this 'residue of evil' could only be fought with an alliance of all its enemies. Therefore, she and Celeborn moved eastwards and established the realm of Eregion near Khazad-dûm. Celeborn was not fond of Dwarves, but she saw the importance of getting close to them, for she saw military interests even with them. Also, she was a Noldo, and therefore close to them in mind and in the passion for crafts; and in Valinor she had learned from Yavanna and Aulë, the creator of the Dwarves himself.[29]:235

    Some Noldor were also interested in establishing a realm near Khazad-dûm because they knew mithril had been discovered there. Therefore, many Elven-smiths came to Eregion and created good relations with the Dwarves. Celebrimbor, a descendant of Fëanor (and therefore a distant cousin of Galadriel), was the greatest of the craft-men and the Lord of Eregion.[27] He was its main builder and in 750 Ost-in-Edhil, the main city of the realm, was begun. The power of Galadriel and Celeborn also grew: thanks to the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm, they had contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand, on the other side of the Misty Mountains. Thanks to Galadriel's influence upon Lórinand, Sauron's machinations there were fruitless.[29]:236 She also got in contact with Númenor, having a meeting with King Aldarion when he came to Tharbad around 883-884.[30]

    About the year 1200, Sauron came in disguise to Eriador, but he was only welcomed in Eregion by Celebrimbor and the Elven-smiths, who were interested in his advice on craftsmanship.[29]:236 Galadriel was not deceived, and rejected him, saying that he was not in the training of Aulë as he claimed.[31] "He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy". At the same time, without her knowledge, Sauron influenced Celebrimbor and his Gwaith-i-Mírdain against Galadriel and Celeborn. Finally, he moved them to rebellion and they seized the power of Eregion at some time between 1350 and 1400. Thus, Galadriel and Celebrían left through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, although Celeborn would not enter the Dwarvish realm and remained in Eregion.[29]:23

    When Sauron made the One Ring in S.A. 1600, his treachery was discovered by Celebrimbor.[27] The elven-smith came to Lórinand, seeking counsel from Galadriel. They did not find the strength to destroy the Rings of Power, but she advised him to hide the Three Rings of the Elves where Sauron could not find them. Therefore he gave her Nenya, the White Ring, and the other Rings were given to other Elven lords.[29]:237 This was done in 1693, the same year Sauron began the war against the Elves.[27]

    With the invasion of Eriador, Eregion was destroyed and Celebrimbor killed. Despite using torture, Sauron could not learn from him where the Elven Rings were, but suspected they were kept by Galadriel and Gil-galad.[29]:238 But thanks to the military intervention of Númenor, Sauron was defeated in 1700.[27] Soon afterwards, Galadriel was affected by sea-longing, and she decided to leave Lórinand and dwell beside the sea.[29]:240 As one of the High-elves, her yearning for the sea was unavoidable, and now she became burdened with the desire to cross to the Blessed Realm, but the ban upon her impeded it.[12] Thus she did not go to the sea yet, but crossed west of the mountains through Khazad-dûm with Celebrían. Seeking Celeborn, they travelled to Imladris, a refuge created by Elrond during the war. Once there, a Council was held, in which it was decided that Imladris would be the Elvish stronghold in the East, rather than the desolate Eregion.[29]:239-40

    Galadriel, Celeborn and Celebrían dwelt a long time in Imladris, but at some point they left and moved near the sea, to Belfalas, at the place later known as Dol Amroth. There were few inhabitants there, but they were visited by Nandorin companies.[29]:238 Apparently, they returned to Lórien twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age.[32]

    From Tolkiengate


    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    That's really not that much and it leaves out centuries. Who knows what the hell she or anyone else was up to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Well we will agree to disagree then - there is a lot there, along with her HUSBAND who has been excised (to give Galadriel female agency, down with the patriarchy) for unknown reasons. But in any case, she is the lady of Lorien. Certainly powerful and influential -

    No where in the writings of Tolkien does she

    • Wear body armor
    • Lead Soldiers
    • Is out for Vengence
    • was 'ordered' back to Valinor (no one was ordered back to valinor btw)

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To be fair it does paint her as a mover of events and influencers of greater alliances, as opposed to plucky disobedient warrior...



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    In any one of the large gaps of hundreds of years, she could have done all of those things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Its confirmed that IMDB have literally removed every review with less than 6 stars - there were lots of 1star reviews for TROP - but in a move which is literally right out of Orwell - they have been deleted

    BTW Quartering has reported it - as have Midnights edge - but go look yourself! Ask yourself what kind of company would do this?

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,317 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Yes; and she could have invented plasma guns and gone hunting in space for aliens as Master Chief as well using the same argument and it's about as good of a fit as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    This is the problem with Tolkien's writings outside of the main works though. They are merely vague sketches. VERY vague sketches. Nowhere does it say that she never led an army (or even a squad), or that she never wore armour, or that she just sat on her arse in Lothlorian (or wherever) for thousands of years.

    There's, literally, hundreds of years missing in the paragraphs in Liamtech's post, where anything could have happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I think it started with Gamergate as the games journalists were too close to the Gaming companies and could be accused as being biased, so people started flocking to independent youtuber reviewers. You see so many youtube videos critical of gaming companies and I think that sort of negativity has seeped into movie reviewing on the site. If a reviewer mentions wokeness or not enough diversity in casting in a movie review I just ignore it. The entertainment value in the plot and acting is what should be called out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    🙄

    What would be more likely though. That she wore a suit of Elvish armour for a brief period or went to space.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,317 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Let's see, 1200 - 5000+ years old (depending on when you want to place it in the age as well as the duration of the years before first age), one of the mightiest magic casters (I can't think of any actually wearing armor who had magic powers but not a topic I spent great time looking up) taugh by Valas in the world able to keep a whole kingdom safe using said powers for thousands of years. Considered one of the most intelligent and fair leaders vs. running around playing soldier cutting things down, picking fights with her followers and other leaders and jumping off swords to show her followers that she's always the bestets. Yea, can't see any disparity between the two characters at all, must have been her rebellious 2000 year stage or something.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,457 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,484 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    'Complete fealty to lore / source material' is too often considered an automatic 'good thing'. Stories and characters have to be adapted for different mediums - that is quadruply the case for something that's adapted from a bunch of appendices and general background notes. Making a coherent, serialised story for television is an entirely different prospect to summarising millennia of fictional history in an appendix at the end of the book.

    Whatever about something being completely divorced from the source material or totally missing the point (we all know of such adaptations)... but this is very clearly a story told in a recognisable and generally loyal portrayal of Middle Earth, with at least a broad and foundational grounding in Tolkien's writing.

    No problem with people having issues with the execution, of course! There are valid concerns and criticisms, albeit hard if not impossible to make much of a final judgement on a lot of it based on two episodes. But it wasn't automatically going to be 'better' if it followed the absolute letter of the lore. And the lore being adapted here is filled with enough gaps that really the writers have significant scope to build on even recognisable characters and events.

    Of course, there was never any need to adapt appendices or make a LotR / Second Age show in the first place. The world would have spun on happily without it. But we are where we are, and it's hardly like Galadriel is running around with the aforementioned plasma cannon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Winston Churchill didn't always smoke cigars or wear a suit and a bowler hat you know. Hitler didn't always sport a toothbrush moustache or lead a political party. These people had lives, a lot of which remains unknown.

    So far, we've seen Galadriel wear a suit of chainmail and lead a small company on a quest that took a few years of her many, many, years of existence. If that's the deal breaker for you, then you might as well stop watching now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭nix


    Doesnt matter, its someones view on it, biased or not, now if they want to delete duplicate reviews proven to be from the same person/IP whatever fair enough. But all? its crazy!



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,357 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    "Right out of Orwell" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    You need to get over your first world problems kid. Orwell was talking about the subtle enslavement of humanity you are talking about a movie review site.

    Thank God Quartering is here to save us from dictatorship 🤭



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭PhiloCypher


    They want her to be everything all at once Tony . Her Hubby hasn't shown up in the 1st 2 eps so CLEARLY they have written him out , they also haven't established Galadriels nebulous vaguely defined powerset in the 1st 2 eps so clearly she's just xenafied Mary Sue and will never be anything more. The sky is always falling with some people.

    As for the ones saying all would have been well if they had just created a new character , Tauriel from the Hobbit says hello. Any new female elf who didn't require rescuing or wasnt getting her ass handed to her regularly would have been accused of being a Mary Sue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭liamtech


    They have removed everything from 5 STAR and below - and the most up-to-date review is from 2nd September -

    TBH i tried to actually engage you in conversation earlier - but your holier than thou attitude is a poor thing to behold. Perhaps you welcome censorship of those you disagree with - where have i heard that before?

    Censorship is Censorship - it is wrong in any guise, for any reason. The fact you condescend about it is absurd. You are not being censored though, so fire away - if at some point you actually want a healthy debate on this topic - let me know

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,357 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Censorship is not censorship ffs.

    Government censorship could tell you the economy is booming while 1m people starve in Ukraine or that the 1000s of people falling out of helicoptors into the ocean are accidents.

    You are talking about a private company hiding how bad a TV show is.

    I'de say turn off the YouTube incels and get some air kid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭nix


    Honestly dont recall much back lash with Tauriel, but i can understand in that instance why some may be annoyed by her inclusion, she wasnt in the hobbit book and she was squeezed in to an already bloated cast.

    She was an unnecessary inclusion, and given how many new characters are in ROP, having a new character in warrior Galadriels place would have worked much better and tolkien fanatics would have alot less to moan about..

    You could have had real Galadriel in it to, but maybe have her being the one sensing sh!t with her magics and sending the warrior elf out on scouting missions..

    They would have had so much more to play with that dynamic to.. ah well



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭liamtech


    IMDB was an independent company at one stage - its over 30 years old, i predates the proper rise of the internet - and now, thanks to Bezos' vanity project, it has lost its credibility - by limiting what people can and cannot say, on a supposed free movie rating database - thats it. IMDB is effectively dead -

    Just to demonstrate how you cannot engage in a civil conversation, you then proceed to whataboutism - yes the fall of IMDB is not as serious as the wars in Ukraine. did i say it was????

    I'd say turn off the YouTube incels and get some air kid. - this is just pure insult @breezy1985 -dont refer to me as a kid - i dont refer to you as sweety, or doll, or babes - given that i tried to engage you in conversation and you continually retort to this horrid form of response - i assume now there is no chance that you and I can discuss this civilly.


    Therefore i suggest you ignore my posts in future -

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



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