Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

06-09-2022 1:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579151#Comment_119579151

And I could walk out, tomorrow and easily double my take home, but I prefer the ability to actually have my work mean something and not just add another bonus to some suit

06-09-2022 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579151#Comment_119579151

Hold your horses, chief. You are not addressing the points being put to you and instead are just grinding your axe every chance you get.You won't get very far in the PAS reading comprehension exams with that sort of skillset.

People are pointing to companies in the private sector getting X% of a rise as that is a valid, real-world example of companies trying to retain staff and reward them for their work over the past few years by offsetting inflation. That is not selective, that's an actual capitalist behemoth who has acknowledged the state of the economy and raised their wages accordingly. They, and others like them, are doing this because of the current rate of inflation. PS workers are also affected by inflation and using them as an example of how profit-making entities are responding to the situation is a completely fair and valid comparison to make.

The reason other companies aren't following suit is down to one thing: greed. They don't want to have to share the profits with their staff. If you want the country to be run like that, an entity whose sole goal is nothing but earning money, then lord help us all.

Your reason for refusing the PS a similar percentage increase is because they already earn Y% more than the private sector. Turns out, you have no idea if that Y% is a real measure of the difference between the jobs and cannot say whether it should be even more of a gap. This makes your reason for refusing the X% increase as meaningless because, by your own admission, they could well be worth double that difference. You simply don't know and therefore have no logical basis for your stance on the matter.

You are railing against the PS getting a raise simply because they are getting a raise. Logic and reason don't come into it, you just don't want them to get more money. Pure bitterness and spite, no more and no less.

It is as clear as day that you do not want the PS to get any raise at all and you cannot explain why in any coherent manner. You look like a raving madman.

The comparison from the CSO shows average wage in both sectors and the public sector is 20 - 27% ahead. If you have issue with these states I suggest you take it up with the CSO.

As suspected, I think your maths is off. Either that, or you're misinterpreting the data.

Lets say, for argument's sake, that the average wage in the public sector is €75,000 and the average in the private is €50,000. The difference between those two, divided by the base figure will give you the % increase/decrease when comparing. In this example, it's 25k over 50k which equals 50%. I've made those up to aid with the explanation, before anyone jumps down my throat. Who knows what the real figure is, but it will be a definite, real figure for both.

It cannot be a range of percentages, like you're saying. It's impossible for the difference between the two averages to be between 20 and 27 percent. It's simply not possible. The average life expectancy age in Europe is 80 years of age. The average life expectancy in Africa is 64 years of age. Europeans live 16 years more than Africans, which is 40%. Note that it is not "between 35% and 40%". it is a definite, real number, not a range.

Edit: and that's before we even get into how ridiculous it is to use averages when comparing two sets of workers that aren't easily comparable.

Alonzo Mosley · 06-09-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579757#Comment_119579757

Super post ....

fliball123 · 06-09-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579757#Comment_119579757

So you think with an upcoming recession and a tsunami of price increases on energy, food and interest rates and you think companies are being greedy because they are not paying pay rises? REALLY? As I say your lot have your head stuck in the sand. Some companies are getting pay rises (they generally tend to be companies not overblown with debt and turning a profit, what are we 3rd most indebted country per capita in thweworld with a debt of 240 Billion, yet your employers think its a good call go give pay rises under those circumstances?) but the majority in the private sector are not as there is a sh1tstorm coming and a lot of companies cannot afford and will not be able to afford the increases in energy, food and interest rates and give more to employees in pay riese and then expect to make a profit. It just does not work like that in the private sector, they dont have an ECB money printing press out the back to turn on. The CSO do a weekly wage comparison on both sectors so your hypothetical sh1te and bringing up average ages in Africa vs Europe is just that absolute sh1te. Its there in black and white weekly wage for private and public (In Ireland not Europe or Africa) no amount of spinning that your trying with that post can be done to misrepresent those numbers. The figure from the CSOs weekly wage has it at about 20%, ISME have it at 22% https://www.isme.ie/public-sector-pay-demands-represent-self-interest-not-national-interest/ and how much will you lot be getting is it 4/5% this year which is why the variation I have put up is between 20% and 27% . I hope this clarifies it for you.

I am railing as there is an avalanche of indicators showing where we as a country will be in 12 months time and I have explained why they should not be getting a pay rise very coherently. The fact that they are already paid a premium with job security and a guaranteed pension is already a significant buffer over the majority of the private sector. We also have to find the money to pay the pay rises meaning I will be paying more or seeing a cut in some other service or the bill will be passed onto my kids or grand kids. I hope that clarifies coherently my position. So when the recession comes it will once again be the private sector decimated and you lot cushioned like before.

06-09-2022 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119580174#Comment_119580174

So you think with an upcoming recession and a tsunami of price increases on energy, food and interest rates and you think companies are being greedy because they are not paying pay rises? REALLY? As I say your lot have your head stuck in the sand.

Yes, I do think that. Where is all that money going in that tsunami of price rises, hmmm? It's just disappearing into the ether, is it? Or is it ending up in private companies' balance books/being paid out to shareholders as bonuses? Why were corporate profits 4 times what they were last year than they are in the average year? If you can claim that PS wages went up by 10+% and use that as a stick to beat us with then I reserve the right to the same with private sector profits.

Some companies are getting pay rises (they generally tend to be companies not overblown with debt and turning a profit, what are we 3rd most indebted country per capita in thw world with a debt of 240 Billion, yet your employers think its a good call go give pay rises under those circumstances?) but the majority in the private sector are not as there is a sh1tstorm coming and a lot of companies cannot afford and will not be able to afford the increases in energy, food and interest rates and give more to employees in pay riese and then expect to make a profit.

Yes. Some are, when they all should be. The Irish Government doesn't exist to turn a profit, they are providing services not trying to make money. They are a different entity altogether and should be paving the way for everyone to follow.

The CSO do a weekly wage comparison on both sectors so your hypothetical sh1te and bringing up average ages in Africa vs Europe is just that absolute sh1te. Its there in black and white weekly wage for private and public (In Ireland not Europe or Africa) no amount of spinning that your trying with that post can be done to misrepresent those numbers. The figure from the CSOs weekly wage has it at about 20%, ISME have it at 22% https://www.isme.ie/public-sector-pay-demands-represent-self-interest-not-national-interest/ and how much will you lot be getting is it 4/5% this year which is why the variation I have put up is between 20% and 27% . I hope this clarifies it for you.

It certainly does. As predicted, you are neither misunderstanding the numbers nor misrepresenting them....instead, you are DOING BOTH. Your lack of mathematical aptitude is showing again, highlighted by your intense eagerness to portray the public sector in as bad a lights as possible.

You said the CSO claimed the difference was between 20 and 27%. Now, you are saying that they claim it is "at about 20%", so your 27% is a lie.

Now you're introducing the ISME as some form of back up, when you've never spoken about them before. This is called changing the goalposts. ISME data is irrelevant to your claim about the CSO.

Finally, you are now using future pay increases that haven't even been agreed yet, and comparing them to old private sector data (notice you've not said anything about increases on that side of the equation); this is intellectually dishonest.

Thanks for the clarification.

I am railing as there is an avalanche of indicators showing where we as a country will be in 12 months time and I have explained why they should not be getting a pay rise very coherently.

You've done no such thing. You've claimed a figure of 27% (which is really 20%) is so big of a gap that we shouldn't be getting anything. Dig a little deeper, and you cannot back this up with anything even remotely resembling a coherent argument. You admitted you haven't a clue whether they should be paid 5% more or 15% more or 50% less to make it fair. Yet you're still using it as the basis for your argument:

The fact that they are already paid a premium

You're talking out of your hole here, pal. You've admitted that you don't know if it's a premium or not.

Sarn · 06-09-2022 8:32pm

Just to point out that this PS premium was discussed earlier in the thread. The CSO highlighted that public sector pay for the majority is below that of the equivalent (qualifications, experience etc) in the private sector.

Augme · 06-09-2022 8:57pm

With the insulting pay deal and now this the current Government are really showing their contempt for public servants.

And I'm not expecting to hear a peep out of the incompetent Forsa either.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/temperature-in-public-sector-offices-to-be-capped-at-19c-to-conserve-energy-41967141.html

Tonesjones · 06-09-2022 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581485#Comment_119581485

Use your increase to buy a jumper?

Augme · 06-09-2022 9:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581517#Comment_119581517

The increase will be going towards ensuring the electricity and gas companies make even more gigantic profits so I won't even be able to afford a jumper.

bren2001 · 06-09-2022 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581485#Comment_119581485

That is a perfectly reasonable thing tondo this winter. Nothing to do with contempt, it's to do with gas shortages this winter. I've bought a blanket for my office

Augme · 07-09-2022 7:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581788#Comment_119581788

The Government are responsible for creating this situation and now their solution is to punish public sector works for their own mismanagement. That's shows contempt to me.

bren2001 · 07-09-2022 7:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119582639#Comment_119582639

The government are not responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the subsequent sanctioning of Russia, and the subsequent reduction of gas supplied to Europe. The government are not responsible for the hike in gas prices in the EU.

The government have reacted badly and made a bad situation worse. Countries that have reacted better will also have gas shortages and will need to manage it accordingly.

The law states your workplace must be 17.5C where reasonable practical. Bring a thermometer. If your workspace is colder than that, they will have to turn the heating up. The government are breaking no laws nor are they showing contempt. They're managing a gas shortage situation and will encourage the private sector to do the same.

Chatting to people about this winter, people seem oblivious as how bad the situation could actually is. It is very bad. This is a very sensible thing to do. (I lecture in the area).

fliball123 · 07-09-2022 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581364#Comment_119581364

Then why does this (premium) differential not exist in most other countries?

LegallyAbroad · 07-09-2022 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119582639#Comment_119582639

18 degrees is not punishment, it's a perfectly comfortable temperature.

How are we meant to limit climate change if people react to every inconvenience like it's an insurmountable hardship?

Mother of Christ.

Hotblack Desiato · 07-09-2022 10:15am

It's only virtue signalling on behalf of the government anyway. There is no gas shortage in Ireland, Ireland is linked to the UK and Norway, not to the EU gas network which is supplied in part from Russia.

Danzy · 07-09-2022 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581485#Comment_119581485

19 degrees is not cold.

Slightly off topic but it is bizarre that people view that as a cold temperature for a house or work space.

bren2001 · 07-09-2022 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583110#Comment_119583110

The UK will have gas shortages and is preparing for it. The UK and Norway will struggle to supply all of Europe.

Its not virtue signaling. It is a very real concern for this winter.

LegallyAbroad · 07-09-2022 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583110#Comment_119583110

Hope you don't work in DECC.

crinkley · 07-09-2022 12:40pm

19 degrees may not be cold in a well built and sustainable building but my last place premises swore the temperature was set to 22 whilst we sat there in coats, girl beside me had fingerless gloves and a hot water bottle.

feel sorry for them if the temp is reduced this winter. Personally I wouldn’t have the temp that low at home, but if I chose to at least I can layer up and remain comfortable, might just buy fluffy socks and a blanket and keep it in my locker!!

07-09-2022 12:44pm

If my office is cold, I will have a plug in heater under the desk. Like I have done for years.

They can basically fcuk off if they think I'm sitting in a cold office.

crinkley · 07-09-2022 12:58pm

My last heater got confiscated I should return and reclaim it!!

07-09-2022 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583980#Comment_119583980

Ours were supplied to us.

I have no problem bringing one of my own if necessary - or I'll just WFH fulltime, whatever they prefer. (Suits me!)

Not sitting in a cold office for anyone.

LegallyAbroad · 07-09-2022 2:04pm

If you're cold in a 19 degree office you should probably see a doctor.

AndrewJRenko · 07-09-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583880#Comment_119583880

I’ve seen major variations in heat around the building in both old, draughty buildings with creaking rads and fancy modern sealed offices with shiny new aircon systems. In both cases, there were large variations between the temperature at the thermostat and the temperature at individual desks.

crinkley · 07-09-2022 2:27pm

Actually the ideal office temperature is apparently 22 according to every article premises sent us to justify not turning up the heat so no need to see a dr feeling cold below this

Hotblack Desiato · 07-09-2022 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583166#Comment_119583166

The UK does not import Russian gas.

Are you seriously suggesting they will export enough gas to Europe to leave their own domestic network (which we piggyback off) short?

Hotblack Desiato · 07-09-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583376#Comment_119583376

Instead of throwing out smartass comments you might actually point out what is wrong with my post?

High prices does not imply supply disruption.

Hotblack Desiato · 07-09-2022 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583908#Comment_119583908

Ah the Greens never think of the law of unintended consequences, do they?

Hotblack Desiato · 07-09-2022 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119584364#Comment_119584364

Right because you can guarantee that most public sector offices which tend to be older and poorly insulated will hit 19 degrees throughout if that is what is set on the thermostat?

We're lucky if they can get the boiler going before November. Trouble with it every bloody year.

07-09-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119584724#Comment_119584724

Same, hence why they provided us with heaters! It would be lucky if the building is approaching warm by home time on Monday evening as they turn all heating off at noon on Friday - and that's if the heating worked first time on Monday morning which plenty of the time, it did not.

Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

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