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The deterioration of IT

24567

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    no one in Ireland even had a Puter 40 years ago so you'd have to say IT has gotten a lot better in the last 40 years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Or maybe

    Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.


    Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.


    In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and nobody knows why. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    Maybe Ray had a calculator, the old ones even look like PCs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    In fairness, a lot of times the fault is the code on the web the developer is copying off rather than a mistake by the developer.

    ;)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Absolutely nothing to do with a BA. They are barely computer literate in most IT companies especially compared to the rest of the company. They in noway would know GUI standard icons and their use that is a programmers job all the way and the testers to also know. If a tester sees a non standard use of an icon they go to the development team to make sure they know the standards as you say because they will release whatever they are allowed.

    Usually what happens is development are shown their bad work and say they don't have time to correct it and BA agree. They claim they will fix it later and then never do so the standard is never followed. The users don't really notice as they don't use enough software to notice it is badly done so they sign off.

    This is in corporate software mostly but has crept into consumer software as the developers have been held to a low quality standard elswhere



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Classic.

    The developer bypassing the BA. Then when they get called out on the utter monkey puzzle they threw together, refusing to change it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I never said it was unnecessary because it is required. We want them to report the problem if it occurs not ignore it nor panic. It is a choice on how to deal with a real issue that may occur and can't be eliminated.

    The users are mushrooms in many case are barely IT literate and easily scared. We changed the message for the very reason the staff freaked out and/or ignored errors. Also used intentionally sometimes to find staff gaming the system. Works extremely well this way whether you think it is a good solution or not. Less panic and more accurate reporting.

    Very common practice. Warning message are meant to be user friendly but errors reports only need to be understood by certain people



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    They should at least test it. Of course thats not their job.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    It shouldn't be a testers job to make decisions about how an icon looks. If an inconsistent icon is what the BAs want, that's what they get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    My fist computer but I think I got it in Christmas 1981

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_VIC-20

    Lots of other home computers around at the time and by 84 pretty common to have a computer in a house but often only seen as a games machine



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Everyone's a mushroom other than developer it seems.

    Developer can do all roles much better than anyone else, other the roles they don't want to do, like testing and support for example. Those aren't real jobs. 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I am a tester normally but manage projects. Developers are very limited generally as are BAs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Tester should flag it at least.

    Wrong icons though is the very tip of the iceberg with this stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Oh I know. As I said, developers will always try to get away with the least amount. You're lucky to get a proof of concept.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    I think the word spoiled rotten comes to mind, thats like easily a grand in todays money plus the need to hook it up to a TV, dont tell me you had a TV in your room

    But pretty common no chance



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Trying to think of the first ones I saw...

    BBC Microcomputer on 1 December 1981, Dragon 32 August 1982

    And Atari's.

    I didn't see many though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    They don't make a decision on how an icon looks they can tell you that the icon being used is incorrect for the function. The BA does not determine development standards nor decide they should work differently to standard. BA is not in control of anything like you say and if they are where you work leave.

    A BA can say they want a prompt button to be a drop down function all they like but the developer can go back and say that is not allowed. If the tester is the one pointing it out both Development and Business Analysis have failed to follow development rules then there is a problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Incorrect for the function according to who? I've worked in plenty of places and developer led software is very common and often why software is bad. BAs design the software, developers make it.

    Who needs architects, just let the brickies design the facade.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I grew up in a working class area and neighbours had them too and by 84 over half the class had them. The Sinclear Spectrum was most popular and cheap. It may have been Christmas 82 I got my VIC20

    You used the one TV in the house but I did get the Amstrad CPC which came with a monitor later on. That has CPM as opposed to DOS



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    working class spending 1k on xmass present, 1981

    come on

    what age were you, were you like an adult at the time?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Exciting times.

    While I might have played the odd game on them, I have to say they didn't spark my interest till much later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You are right of course.

    But it wasn't always this way. Back in the day you used to have full development teams that included designers, BA, testers, Project managers etc. Seems to have fallen out of favor and replaced where the developer does everything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You are aware of a prompt button with the 3 dots on it? It is a prompt button as per industry standards

    https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/Button/Tasks/SettingButtonType.html

    BA do not design software they find out the requirements from the business. The design is done by a development team that may have an architect or not. Testers check it works as it is meant to and follows standards.

    Had a BA playing silly buggers with interfaces wanting all non standard use of icons/buttons. He got it live in the end with a huge list of bugs from his "new" way of thinking. When he came back for the next project to carry on everything he was told everything would be to standard. The users got mad and wanted it to be consistent so he tried to get the developers to do the same again. The new developer lead was having none of it so all the existing bugs had to be fixed on the already paid for work. BA got a roasted because he had removed all GUI bugs from reports when he finished the product



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Yes I am aware, most decent BAs in software are also. There are plenty of devs who aren't!

    That's an app designed for a windows OS you have standards for, web apps can be designed in many different ways. Architect on the dev and infra side can design how the backend works, microservices etc.. not the GUI. But of course, projects often become developer led.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The interface(where possible) should be detached from the functionality so you can change the theme for accessibility if needs be. Or localized.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    They made it till 1985 and I also said it may have been a year later. I do remember people had the Commodore 64 while I was still using my VIC20. My parents saw it as an investment in my education and I was using it for programing. As I ended up in IT without formal education in it they seemed to have made the right decision. It was with my brother we got it as was how many people got big expensive things.

    The 80s weren't quite as grim as people made out. There were enough people with computers in my class that I made money selling programs in school by 86 to other primary school kids.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    its not just grim, it's like buying an xbox series x for each of the kids, this xmass



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I agree there are IT professionals that don't know the basics of UI design yet are involved. That is my point yet you were questioning where the standards came from. Most development teams have a document of such standards but the whole point of the thread is standards are slipping and getting worse over time not better. A BA insisting a prompt button brings up a drop down menu is an example I have experienced. Wouldn't change his mind no matter what. It was the weirdest thing I have ever seen a person in IT insist on while ignoring all advice, reasoning, standards etc... it bite him in the ass all the same. The developer lead was at fault for not going over the BAs head and doing what was asked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Sounds dysfunctional tbh.

    We just have programmers. The just do what they want.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You do understand direct price comparisons aren't possible even when they bring up a price based on inflation? Don't believe me and think it is extraordinary.

    Back in 96 a women I worked with spent IR£1.5k on a PC for the family and I was shocked. My dad really thought computers were the way forward and thought the whole family would use it and learn. The reason he got me the CPC was so I would do his accounts on it. Now that was expensive at the time and even had a form of floppy drive that was extremely rare.

    I also had the Atari 2600 and got that at the time of release in Ireland so I do know we were more likely to have the latest tech due to my dad. We had it for about 2 years before the massive price drop and dumping of games into Europe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I don't think that was typical.

    Commodore 64 was about $600 which is about €1700 in todays money.

    Even when 486 wasn't cheap 10yrs later. http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/25019/PC-Magazine-November-1992/

    We've only got back to those prices today with the GPU shortage and the pandemic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    you can directly compare the price, money was money back in 1980s too and working class wages were shite

    not many working class parents knew of computers not to mind be buying them for the kids to start programming in



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I can only tell you my experience and the numbers in my school at the time. I grew up in Dublin 5 and not the posh part in Raheny and computers were common. Were you alive then experiencing the 80s are basing it on looking up the costs now?

    Spectrum was the most common then Commadore 64



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    is this when you realise you weren't working class

    and you were doing your fathers accounts

    mmmmm



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭PHG


    This issue is why UX get paid a lot of money!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You do get tradesmen and sole traders have accounts? Computers as an expense was even a thing then too. Were you about in the 80s? Even the neighbours with 5 kids and sole salary of a factory operator had a BBC computer in 86. I was raised in a working class area right beside one of the worst council estates in the country going to school with people who lived there. They had computers. You seem to be missing the Spectrum was cheap and that was the majority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Alive. I can say I only knew about 3 people with computers back then. None at school. We had a computer class after school for a few weeks, I think on BBC Micro's, but I don't remember much about it. I didn't take much interest. Then again my school was a really mix. Where you were doing Latin, but also had kids in class on probation for joyriding. An eclectic mix. Dublin was classy in the 80s.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well I would say they were rare. Though I did get my first computer in the 90s via writing off it off as a family business expense. That was pretty common in the 90s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Well there was no way my secondary school in 87 was ever going to teach Latin. It was metal work or wood work and a former industrial school. Yes lots of joy riders, drug dealers and thieves. Basically the school all the students kick out of other schools were sent to. Your school sounds way posher than mine but I was talking about primary school

    Would have been the BBC Acorn computer which I think was less than half price of a Commadore 64 but supported with education material



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    I was about in the 80s yes, in the real world

    I know about accounts, not many would be letting their kids do them, on what did you have a printer too?

    not one where parents of factory operators were buying computers in 1981, they were probably renting the TV ffs and not a colour one

    I bet you had a colour TV, paid for

    Computers not a chance



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,658 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Everything atm is minimum turnaround. Someone thinks of a feature they 'need' in the morning, so lets have a release in the evening. They call it 'agile' and everything is done in 'sprints' - state of 'permanent urgency'. Specs are a thing of the past. Hard to see how to maintain quality in the long run here.

    Ah whatever, that'll pass too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You know I didn’t say somebody working in a factory bought a computer in 81 but by 86. You could actually go to place with files and get them printed or bring the file to the accountant to file. Well at 13 I was doing book keeping in school and was just filing and filling in a spread sheet. At 16 I was doing technical drawings for buildings that still stand to this day. Not everybody had a childhood where they did nothing but play.

    we also had greyhounds we raced but nobody working class does that. I had to get up at 7am to walk them 4 miles everyday before school and then after school the same. Wether didn’t matter. We may have been better off than some in the area but not the wealthiest by a long shot.

    i don’t think you know what working class is because even management in the civil service are working class. So you do have private estates beside a council estate and they are all working class.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    How did they bring a file to somewhere in in the early 80s. 5¼-inch floppies?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Latin was taught by lots of the CBS. It's a religious thing not a posh thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    There has always been a way to move and store files. I certainly didn’t do it in the early 80s and never said that, you and monkey are mixing up time lines. The CPC did have floppies and I had that in 1987. I was filling in a spreadsheet which was magic then and compared to an adult manually doing it and charging for it.

    The freedom to study Latin was not something people would have had in my area. It was also a CBS and former industrial school where control and practical skills rules. About a quarter of my year left once they hit 16.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Its the lad who claims computers were common among the working class in the 80's who is mixing up his timelines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There's a touch of the 4 yorkshiremen about Rays revisionism.

    I don't think I ever saw or used a 5¼-inch outside a college lab. They were gone by the time I started working in IT. In college I vaguely remember they were accidentally wiped very easily. Especially by walkmans and headphones of the day.

    I thought those early home computers used audio cassettes. I didn't find it interesting at the time. Seemed very dull stuff.

    I think I really only got interested in computers with the start of CAD and 3D stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Kinda sucks the fun out of it.

    I don't think it was my dream to chase some stupid process that no one seems to care about other than to tick a box on a report that no one will read. 7yr old me would say urrrghhh.



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