organic farming

Stationmaster · 23-08-2022 9:47am

Any good sites/resources etc available or out there for weighing up the pros and cons of going organic or not?

Have 15 suckler cows on approx 60 acres in a disadvantaged area and not sure what to do. I winter out and don't give any meal bar a bag here and there for bringing them in. My big problem I imagine would be cutting silage as I don't have my own slurry so what would I use for fertilizer?

I don't put out fertilizer on anything other than the silage fields as it is so I feel I'm nearly organic anyway and if the money is good then why not? Also, how do I get around dosing cattle and sheep for fluke/worms?

23-08-2022 10:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509304#Comment_119509304

I'm only half way through the course at the minute so others can provide more practical detail. You mentioned out wintering, poaching is a huge no-no, so think whether your land can out winter stock without any poaching.

You can import slurry, though I think there is standards around the management of the source farm.

You don't need to "get around" dosing. You can dose. BUT.... the withdrawal periods are double the stated period on the dose, so 56 days if the pack states 28 etc. You will need to do an animal health plan with your vet before conversion stating known "disease" risks, so you can with FEC testing dose if needed. BUT..... (again).......... You will need to think a little differently about parasite management, trying not to graze at risk fluke areas when it's damp (I know...), breeding from stock that are thriving and not getting **** tails etc. Our tutor talked a lot about diatomaceous earth (DE), which he sprinkles on and feeds to his alpacas against parasites.

So there are other parasite strategies in organics which are preferable to dosing BUT as he says animal welfare is king, so you must treat animals that need it.

If you haven't done the course, it's a requirement for the scheme, it sounds like you would get benefit out of it for decision making about the scheme if nothing else.

Organic production principles course link https://nots.ie/courses/

blue5000 · 23-08-2022 10:28am

How much silage do you need? A planner might be the best one to do the sums for you.

Egg counts will give you an idea on whether you need to dose or not. You are still allowed use them but with longer withdrawal periods. Good herdsman don’t allow some of the doses, don’t want to name what they are without being 100% sure which ones. As hq says doing the course yourself would be a good start. He types faster than me too!

Stationmaster · 23-08-2022 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509478#Comment_119509478

Great info and advise - thanks a million. I've looked into the courses a bit alright so will follow up and get one done.

On the outwintering, the alternative isn't really an option for me to be honest with my numbers and, to be honest, with the way I want to do my farming. I know there are obvious downsides but I find the health of the herd in general and definitely the health and quality of the calves benefit greatly from being out all the time. The do poach a bit obviously on the ground they're wintered on so I will have to see how |I can best manage that.

Getting faecel samples done too as I'd much prefer to pinpoint exactly what needs to be done rather than dose/inject indiscriminately throughout the year so I think that should work well with the organic side of things.

As I said, the main thing I have to try and figure out is what will grow my grass for silage! Anyone use supersoil or similar products?

23-08-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509832#Comment_119509832

I would say don't underestimate poaching as regards being a big issue, organics is about soil health. Met a former organic inspector back in 2019 who poached a small area due to trying something new and got a €2k penalty.

That's why the course will be helpful, informing you whether organics will fit what you want to do, or not. I know at least one participant in the course I'm on has been advised his stocking level will either have to reduce OR he will end up spending a fortune on meal. The natural carrying capacity of the land has been mentioned numerous times.

I don't mean to bang on about it, but just to illustrate that these are important parts of the scheme where there is annual and also spot inspections.

Stationmaster · 23-08-2022 2:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510738#Comment_119510738

I'm definitely well understocked but sounds like the poaching could be an issue so for me even though the cattle are restricted to about 6 acres in total over the winter. I'll definitely have to look into it more and will do the course.

Thanks again - some really helpful information there in just a few posts and most appreciated.

23-08-2022 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510776#Comment_119510776

Maximum stocking level in organics will be 170/kg/N/year so something like 2.5/6 suckler cows hectare I think (don't rely on anything I say in court please! 😀 ) BUT that's different to and separate from poaching. I'll shut up about it now.

As to soil fertility, lots of different/new ideas on the Biofarm conferences, think it's €50 to access the recordings.

tanko · 23-08-2022 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510776#Comment_119510776

I’m not certain on this but if you’re out wintering in Organics i think you have to have a minimum of one hectare per livestock unit available to the animals at all times.

24-08-2022 10:41pm

I hear there's to be an organic pavilion at the ploughing this year, guess I'll be going. Wonder can I get a cattle prod in time to fend off the hordes... That or I'll be the one carrying the electric fly swatter.

endainoz · 25-08-2022 12:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119517868#Comment_119517868

It'll be full of tyre kickers alright. Still though, if they get a 5% conversion rate it'll be a positive.

25-08-2022 3:38pm

Exams tonight, jaysus the panic 😂

blue5000 · 25-08-2022 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119520871#Comment_119520871

Never heard of anyone failing it yet. Did you get to meet up face to face or was it all on line? Our group met up only once for the exam and a farm walk. Very hard to recognize ppl in real life after only ever seeing them on zoom.

25-08-2022 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119521776#Comment_119521776

All online, just out of it this minute. Might meet some of them at the ploughing on the Tuesday.

Stationmaster · 06-09-2022 12:58pm

There's a walk tomorrow evening in Offaly, details were in last weeks journal, but I can't find details of exactly where it's on bar what was mentioned - Banagher, Co. Offaly. Anyone know anything else about it? I rang the ACA and could only leave a voicemail but they haven't rang me back - they're organising it. Thanks!

UPDATE - Just got email with details!

Siamsa Sessions · 06-09-2022 1:13pm

I just signed up to do the intro course with Teagasc. Starting on Tues, 4-Oct, and then the next four Tuesdays after that, with a farm walk on the final Tuesday.

Anyone on here doing it?

I'm attending to try learn something and get my head tuned into what it might be like. I don't plan on going for certification at this stage, but maybe I'll come away a convert 😁

Stationmaster · 06-09-2022 6:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579021#Comment_119579021

Which course is that? I've driven myself demented trying to decide if I'll convert or not so trying to gather up as much info as I can! I'm going to give that poor farmer in Offaly an awful grilling tomorrow evening!!

wrangler · 06-09-2022 7:07pm

Here's a poster

Siamsa Sessions · 06-09-2022 9:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119580919#Comment_119580919

It’s “level 5 organic farming principles”. On Zoom from 10am to 1pm, every Tuesday, for four weeks and a farm walk the last day. But it doesn’t say where the farm walk in on. I’m in the south-east so hopefully it’ll be around this region someplace.

893bet · 06-09-2022 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581567#Comment_119581567

Link?

how much is that?

Siamsa Sessions · 06-09-2022 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581688#Comment_119581688

It’s this course: https://www.teagasc.ie/rural-economy/organics/training/

Costs €220

Birdnuts · 06-09-2022 10:50pm

Interesting interview in the farming indo last week with an organic tillage farmer. While yields are a bit less than conventional, its actually significantly more profitable due to the near elimination of chemical input costs.

minerleague · 07-09-2022 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578950#Comment_119578950

Well, did you go?, was there myself, - big crowd, probably will apply this time.

Cran · 07-09-2022 9:27pm

Was there myself, couldn’t get over the crowd .

Silverdream · 07-09-2022 9:33pm

I'll be signing up to the Organics scheme myself. Just waiting on the advisor to complete the paperwork. I'm only going into it for the handy money no other reason. I was always going to be reducing stocking rate as I got older, the current climate has only sped up the process.

At the end of the day Organic farming is the most wasteful use of our land resource, its all half truths and lies. Any Organic farm I saw had an underlying hint of bypassing the rules :- using a bit of bag fertilizer, using conventional nuts/ration, buying in conventional Silage/Hay. Selling Organic cattle as conventional!!!

They wouldn't have to be doing this if it was a true system.

893bet · 07-09-2022 9:45pm

Not been stackable with Acres is a negative.

davidk1394 · 08-09-2022 9:59am

I have no intention for the time being in joining but I just said I'd add this. A relative is an organic farmer for the last 30 years. They grow organic oats for flahvans but they were fattening cattle. The one thing I took from it was the cost of finishing cattle and the backlog to get them into the factory. Its not as simple as ringing your agent on a Monday and sending them down on Wednesday or Thursday. Back 2 years ago you have to book in the cattle before you even buy them.

blue5000 · 08-09-2022 1:56pm

Ya I think the big problem with the beef is that there is only one processor and there is no competition, sounds familiar doesn’t it?

But I think with a lot more suckler farmers interested there should be scope for a high value, organic low movement numbers premium market in a few years. I wonder would a mobile slaughter unit work?

Good luck Silver dream, hopefully it all works out for you.

Siamsa Sessions · 08-09-2022 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589651#Comment_119589651

I’ve seen someone posting on Twitter about a mobile slaughter unit in New Zealand. It’s less stressful on the animal as it doesn’t have to leave the farm and travel to the new noisy surroundings of a factory.

Would it be a butcher or maybe a beef producer group who might set up a mobile unit here? Maybe a few farmers who sell direct to consumers?

davidk1394 · 08-09-2022 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590229#Comment_119590229

There's a kiwi farmer living in a house with me. It's a very popular option over there. Its usually for butchering 1 or 2 animals for the house.

Jim_11 · 08-09-2022 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590229#Comment_119590229

Some hope! To much red tape and regulations here for that, very few butchers kill their own these days, they’ve been driven out of it unfortunately

organic farming

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