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Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    He told people he went up there. That`s evidence he went up there. Are you aware of anyone else with a violent history who displayed a longing to go up there that night? Are you aware of anyone else who told people afterwards that they went up there that night?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,846 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Am I aware? What a ridiculous question.

    Are you aware there are lots of unsolved murders out there that we can't place anybody at the scene for? So why do I need to be aware of someone else? You really don't have a clue about murders.

    Are you aware of how many people in the area have a 'violent history'?

    Are you aware the murder could have been carried out by someone not from the area? With or without a violent history?

    So it is irrelevent, neither necessary not sufficient nor in any way indicative of guilt.

    And why on earth would you lead with confessions as placing him at the scene. If it's a confession it doesn't just place him at the scene, it's a confession of murder.

    So there's no actual evidence he went up there.

    The bizarre roundabout way you use it to put him at the scene instead of the whole shebang even shows you don't have confidence in it because it has already been thoroughly discredited.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The thing is, if Bailey actually did it and gotten clean away he must have known a bit about the local police:


    Who was experienced enough most likely going to investigate the crime?

    Were they experienced in investigating murder at all? - Which was the last murder to investigate? Most likely none?

    Were they experienced and even knowledgeable on how to collect DNA evidence?

    How would they secure a crime scene?

    How likely was it that a doctor or a forensic pathologist would arrive quickly at the scene?


    In this light it would not surprise me, if Bailey was the first to volunteer DNA, knowing full well, that the police most likely didn't collect anything, knowing they were totally incompetent. He would also always have that trump card, that he was the first to volunteer DNA having nothing to fear, stating "I've nothing to do with the murder".

    It could have easily have been that way. And if the Guards really collected usable DNA in a competent way, Bailey wouldn't have stood a chance anyway, would have been arrested and convicted in Ireland with ease.

    So he could easily have taken this kind of gamble.

    We don't know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    You are using "it seems" and "apparently". You are speculating. Sophie reported drugs to nobody by the way. You shouldn`t believe Gemma`s nonsense. You make a fair point about Marie`s lover boy but I suspect the gardaí considered him a figment of her imagination from quite an early stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "why do I need to aware of somebody else?"

    Because you are very much on the "somebody else did it" side of the fence. As far as I am concerned that requires you to explain why you think the violent individual who expressed a desire to go up there that night and who told people afterwards that he did it, didn`t do it.

    "Are you aware of how many people in the area have a violent history"

    No. I`d imagine quite a few. But like I said, I am only aware of one violent man who expressed a desire to go up there that very night and who later told people he had been up there.

    "Are you aware that the murder could have been carried out by someone not from the area?"

    Yep. Are you aware that if you buy a ticket you could win the lottery?

    "So there is no actual evidence he went up there"

    That`s you and Tinytobe on the same planet then.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe




  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01



    The more you search for a motive to the murder, the more it becomes localised.

    Even in this day and age, murders of such a barbaric nature are few and far between (thank God).

    Yeah, we have the drugs cartels, the young lad that was chopped up in a bath recently etc... But by and large, most murders are flash points that went bad, like a bar fight were that one landed punch was fatal...

    The Sophie Du Plantier murder was different, she was not murdered in a City dwelling, she was not the victim of an act of mindless violence on a night out, she wasn't in the wrong place at the wrong time...

    She was at home, probably in bed (or just out of bed) located at the back end of nowhere.

    Sophie's cottage was well off the beaten track, it was situated off a minor road, down a boreen, past a gate and up a passage.... It was literally in the middle of nowhere.

    Now, given it was the middle of winter, and the stark surroundings would have been grim to say the very least... It was cold, dark, bleak and unforgiving to any random stranger passing by ...

    So what is my point??

    My point is, that we more than likely already know the name of the murderer.

    The answer is in the locality.

    The amount of individuals who would have been around that area between the hours of midnight and 8.00am is minimal. You would have neighbours, villagers, party revellers, taxis, emergency services and very few in between...

    You could nearly say that 100 people maximum may have had the potential to be out and around that area (namely passing thru..), at that time of night, during those specific hours. (100 is a stretch by the way)

    How many of them would have known that Sophie was at home? How many of them would have wished Sophie harm? How many of them would have known there was indeed a cottage down a dark boreen, over a gate, and up a passage???

    I would suggest only a person with local knowledge.

    The vast majority of people do not have homicidal tendencies. Yet, Sophie was the victim of a prolonged assault, an assault that carried on long after she was in a position to defend herself. This suggests that the person who murdered Sophie knew her, and suggests that there was an undercurrent of resentment towards her.

    To know of Sophie, you have to be local. To know she is at home, you have to be local. To know where she lives, and how to get there, you have to be local.

    I don't buy into the hired hitman theory... It was too messy and brought too much attention, it would have been much easier just to lob her off the top of a cliff and no more about it.

    Same with the drugs cartel theory... She was in Ireland a couple of times a year at most, kept herself to herself, why would you draw the attention of the country upon yourself by splattering a young Mother across a passageway in West Cork to send a warning to people to mind their business..??

    This was a local related murder committed by a local person. The murderer's name is out there, it's in the public domain.

    There is maybe around a dozen local suspects with question marks against them - Locals who acted strangely after the murder, locals who can't explain fully their actions during the killing hours (Just for example - MF driving around the vicinity with unknown passenger) there are many more..

    And yes, Ian Bailey leaving the bedroom for the night after stating he didnt.

    So, if we accept that the murderer is local - What defines him?

    The sheer level of violence used was way beyond the requirement to kill somebody. This was a rage driven by hate. To keep raising and slamming the rock into Sophie's already crushed skull was barbaric, brutal and fueled by temper.

    Whoever killed her, was either intentionally going to meet her, or was on route to Alfie's, there can be no other explanation why somebody would be in such a remote spot, in such weather conditions, at that time of the night / early morning.

    What about the fella that committed suicide for doing something terrible? What about the young buck that took off to England never to set foot on these shores again? What about the fella with a weird interest in bondage that Sophie had decided to do business with? The knicker sniffer? The guy breaking in and using Sophies bath? The dispute with the gate? The neighbour with the bandaged hand the day after the murder? And yes.. the drunken poet from up the road....

    We probably already know the name of the murderer - It's down to interrogating their alibis in a professional manner.

    But.... He's local, of that you can be assured. (Or was local at the time).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Good thoughts. I agree with nearly all of your points.

    Most importantly, the killer must have known that Sophie was at her house, a place where she didn't stay too long in any given year. So either the killer was local, noticed activity at her house, seen the parked car there, or received that information from somebody local.

    The manner she was killed would suggest more a rage killing, something unplanned, but then again, if it was unplanned, how would the killer have known she was at her house. So the killer at least planned to visit her. Also, the killer, if he was professional could also have made it look like a rage killing, - if he was experienced, wanted to deviate from him, implicate a local rage killing. But then again, the killer could have strangled her, with certainty that there would not have been any noise at all.

    The one thing that bothers me about the drug theory, is none of the people in question, lived the life of successful drug dealers. None owned fancy big houses, had luxury cars, or took expensive vacations somewhere, not in line with their salary. These things would have stood out by miles, and I'd say none of them would have been so smart to hid money in Switzerland and never spend anything in Ireland.....

    The other thing about the sexual rejection theory that bothers me, is who would wait so long for Sophie to return to Ireland just to want to sleep with her? If somebody on the Mizen Head peninsula would have wanted casual sex, I'd suggest there would have been different choices, a lot quicker than waiting for Sophie to return to her cottage.

    The only thing I really profoundly don't agree with at all, is any kind of implication that the house is so remote that it's either difficult to find, or local knowledge is needed. I myself clearly am not local, but found the house with ease, a bit of a hunch and taking the off chance included, - and that back in the days when google earth wasn't as it is today. To me the house was very easy to find, even though I've never lived in the area.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "The only thing I really profoundly don't agree with at all, is any kind of implication that the house is so remote that it's either difficult to find, or local knowledge is needed."

    The Gardaí had to phone Alfie back for directions to the house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    That just proves the idiots that were in the local gardai at that time if they didnt even know their locality



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,846 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It can't be that hard to find then cannot, if idiots can be directed to it with a short phone call... or short set of written directions or one of those things that's at the tip of my tongue, rhymes with... cap.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Ok, give me a “short set of written directions” on how to get from Bantry to Dreenane, using your cap, (not Google directions)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,846 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Sure, give me your cap and I'll mark it on it... it's amazing what people were able to do pre internet by means of communicating information?

    How do you think anyone found a house they'd never been to before in an unfamiliar area in 1996?

    The point is, it doesn't have to be someone intimately acquainted with the area to find the place. They can be given basic directions, written or via a phone, or map guidelines - and find it.

    They don't need a local sherpa to guide them through a hidden pass.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Yes, I agree, yes, granted its difficult to find & off the beaten track but I wouldnt necessarily say it has to be a local because of this. Anyone could learn how to get their easily if the applied themselves & learnt how. It wouldnt make me rule out a non local, hitman or someone from France as they probably would have scouted the area too in the days before the murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Exactly my words.

    I personally drove from Dublin and found it, not taking a single wrong turn, just using a map.

    These are also my thoughts. However if it was a hitman, I don't think he would have stayed locally. Possibly some B&B in the area a bit further away, having a good story, like visiting family over Christmas, or so, and leaving after Christmas. During the day he would have scouted the area. The question is only how would a hitman have cleaned himself up, if he was staying somewhere, without arousing attention by anybody?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,221 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It could have been someone from outside but it most likely would be someone who lived locally or at least visited often.

    If they came from elsewhere they would most likely have been seen but a local would not have been noted. I know there are reoprts of strangers seen but they none of these seem credible now.

    The messy nature of the killing shows lack of real planning.

    They weren't concerned about being seen (it seems)

    The dog didn't bark.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Yah of course, and one of the reasons why I previously ruled out a hitman was because of the messy nature of the killing but on second thoughts, he may have planned it in a particular manner but it didnt work out like that. STDP was known for being fiery at times & could be tempestuous, maybe she didnt want to go along with what he had planned and fought back, then it became messy. The lack of witnesses, exit and lack of DNA evidence at the scene would suggest the work of a hitman tbh, even the time of the killing which most seem to think was early morning. This is probably the best time to kill someone, not many people awake, then to corroborate this, a fiesta seen speeding away from the scene. With a hitman aswell, they're not stupid, they're not going to book a flight out of the nearest airport, more likely to get the ferry to England & then France from there or mainland europe so as to cover their tracks.

    Again, not saying it was a hitman but I think its important to keep an open mind on who it could be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The real problem for any possible hitman would have been a car which would blend in, most likely a rental. Due to the remote location, he would have to have driven, have to have been able to independently move around. Something small, some two door, something in colour that doesn't stand out and won't be remembered easily, either white or silver, nothing flashy yellow or red or something like that.

    Then there would be the question on how much blood would really have been on the killer? Suppose the killer had a spare set of shoes ( because of possible left footprints), a spare set of trousers, shirt and jacket in the car? Plus a couple of cleaning tissues to wipe his hands off blood? This could have worked easily, changed clothes behind a bush in darkness, then drove away, slowly n, dumped the clothes into the see off some cliff.

    Later on, driven on, to Dublin, returning the car, possibly taking Dublin bus to the ferry terminal, taking the ferry to Holyhead and then onward, nobody would have noted anything, - or even taking the train to Belfast, and flying somewhere.

    I doubt that the Guards would have been able to track him. And yes, it's wise to keep an open mind, it's just one possible scenario.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername



    You don’t know rural Ireland very well, a new car with a Dublin registration would stick out a mile in West Cork, even now, never mind 1997.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,221 ✭✭✭saabsaab




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    A Fiesta was not seen speeding away from the scene.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Which reports of strangers are you referring to?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,221 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Not at the time of the murder.

    ……………

    Ian Bailey has written a special poem and will recite it at the memorial.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,221 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Any professional would have known how to blend in in some way. He could easily have rented a car in Cork as well. As far as I know the registration is always referring to the city or county where the car was first registered in. Maybe this wasn't in 1997, but in 1999 and onwards I recall this to be the case. And explaining the trip as visiting some family member over Christmas would have been an explanation nobody would have given a 2nd thought about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "Ian Bailey has written a special poem and will recite it at the memorial."

    Why would he do that I wonder? Says he didn`t know her, never even met her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    😂🤣 Are you serious? I think chooseunsername's humour is lost on you! You gave me a good laugh though 😂🤣

    It does show you take everything literally!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭tibruit




This discussion has been closed.
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