Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

The impression/opinion is out there, is the point.

Your 'opinion' of that is your own and worthless tbh. I.E. It is immaterial.

The fact is, it is a factor that will influence the next election.

Let's be honest, the onus was on Sinn Fein to approach FF or FG with a workable draft of a programme for government. Instead they had a public sulk that the other two large parties weren't approaching them. They've spent so long hurling from the ditch and demonising FF / FG (often through very personalised attacks) that the two traditional "enemies" of Irish politics were happier to work together than to seriously consider SF as a coalition partner. Vitriolic on-line campaigns that try to paint Fine Gael as a far right party (or the likes of Varadkar as Thatcherite Tories) may well play well to the galleys but they do little to convince floating voters and centrists that Sinn Fein are to be taken seriously.

Politics is, at it's heart, the art of compromise. Sinn Fein have yet to demonstrate any inclination to be amenable to compromise in the Republic of Ireland, choosing instead to pursue a more American or British style of antagonistic politics that, while suited to the first past the post, dual party systems in those jurisdictions, doesn't play well here outside of the angry young wannabe revolutionaries whose votes SF can only lose to the likes of PBP.

To put it more bluntly: if Sinn Fein want a seat at the grown ups table, they need to start acting like grown ups. Were I a political strategist in their employ, I'd be encouraging Sinn Fein to stop with the personal attacks and reach across the divide: to find some low hanging issues of common interest with Fianna Fail deputies, co-author some bills with them and demonstrate a willingness as a party to work together to get those bills turned into legislation. An election candidate who can point to some legislative achievement is far more worthy of consideration to floating voters, and a party you've a track record of working with in the past is a far more appealing prospective coalition partner than one who's spent the past term of government hurling abuse at you.

Yes, any party has a right to negotiate a coalition, but they don't have a right to demand that others negotiate with them, particularly if they have castigated those other parties and claimed they wanted a government without them. In those circumstances, some diplomacy, some tact, some compromise are needed. SF displayed none of that after the last election, and very little since.

Without changing, SF are likely to stay in opposition for quite some time.

If a coalition has a majority of seats, they have a mandate from the people. Simple as. Those going around crying, whinging and moaning that somehow democracy was denied or frustrated because SF didn't end up in government, either don't understand democracy or don't understand mathematics.

It is now interesting watching Labour under Bacik differentiate themselves from SF in how they do business and in their policies. She sees a path back to government without SF.

Very well said.

The issues with SF are well known.

The online rhetoric and mob mentality, the whitewashing and revisionism of their history, to their populist agenda to all things like Climate Change, the Special Criminal Court and Property Tax. To block housing developments at a local level but give out about it at the central government level.

To many people, SF is just not grown up enough to manage the country. They are good at stoking anger, and resentment and spouting easy solutions to complex and difficult problems, but governing is hard and SF to me has no capacity to govern in a reasonable and mature fashion.

I think your point about 'not enough of them to matter' doesn't stack up to developments/reality.

FF have said they will enter talks, a huge step down from MM's 2020 position.

That can only indicate one thing - those votes are important to them. They know where this is going IOW.

They are looking to their future and survival.

That will play into SF's ambition to form a goverment IMO. ANd you don't have to be a supporter or like any of the parties to see this.

Irish politics is being forced to change, fundamentally.

That demographic is not where the battleground is and FF know it.

"Irish politics is being forced to change, fundamentally."

Who is doing this forcing?? Is this SF policy - to force change? Unfortunate choice of words if so?

Irish political landscape is changing, more fracturing of the vote among a greater number of parties and independents. So coalitions seem likely to be how it is for quite a while. But coalitions are essentially relationships and other parties don't want to get into bed with SF.

So Francie, go for your overall majority and then you can do what you want.

Being interested in other views is the first task of compromise.

You have eloquently displayed in your post the problems that SF had and will continue to have in doing business with other parties. SF and their supporters need to learn that demanding and shouting won't make a deal.

As for the so-called change in attitude, I don't see it. I expect that FF will say during the election campaign that SF can't be trusted with justice and defence or the public finances. So it will be a limited opening to coalition, designed so that they can quickly rule it out afterwards and continue with the current government.

With every post you make, the difficulties that SF have become clearer. The dismissal of other viewpoints, the retreat into historical injustices, the insulting tone, it could almost be Pearse or Mary-Lou talking. It didn't persuade anyone after the last election, it is not persuading me or other posters now, and it won't work after the next election either.

Sure, SF are doing well luring in young voters, but as I mentioned, younger voters are nowhere near as loyal as older voters and if SF don't fix the issues they say they can easily fix, younger voters will leave them in droves and SF will be back to fighting it out with Labour in the single %

Correct.

If you want to see how hard a coalition government will be for SF, just talk to their supporters. Their view is the only one that really matters, according to them anyway.

Discussion is about how SF can form a government.

Your crystal ball stuff about when they are in a government is for another thread.

The only 'dismissal' on view here is your dismissal of the view that FF and FG clung to power.

That view exists and is having an effect.

No idea TBH

As I said, I'm not really interested in your view of 'a view' that is out there and is having a material affect on FF and at least some of their TD's and members.

In my view, FF's fear of being linked to a cling to power with FG, (of all party's) will factor into negotiations on the formation of the next government, if current polling plays out in a GE. It already has as demonstrated, at least 20(from which a new leader may emerge) TD's with no issues and MM rowing back and now saying FF would negotiate.

How they can form a government?

Treat other parties like normal and drop the perpetual and advisorial robotic narrative about 'Power swaps' and the like. That would be a good first step.

That view exists only on Twitter and Social Media and the like. Those platforms, however, are not the real world.

Here is mainstream media with the same view in reverse. This journalist believes they should hold on to power and not 'hand it over'. 😁

That ownership and entitlement again.

The 'arrogance of power' is a well recognised ailment and it is understandable after 100 years but not forgivable in a democracy. Maybe that is another reason for FF pulling back from doing it again?

It was perfectly normal as it reflected the wishes of the majority of the electorate.

Should it be sent to the army council?

The point made has nothing to do with my view. I did not take ownership anywhere of the view out there. Please stop the barrister routine and deal with the points made.

Had it been a SF-FF government, you would have voted for that too.

Not sure what your point is after that.

I have said more than once, that 'rightly or wrongly' the view is out there and FF have responded it to it in such a way that IMO they won't want to be seen to do it again. There are also other reasons why they won't be keen to ally or coalesce with FG.

How often do I have to say it, your view, my view, podge's view of that view is irrelevant.

The fact is IMO it is having an effect on FF positioning and will influence what they do after the next GE.

This IMO will aid SF in forming a government.

It isn't a matter of opinion as to whether a particular view is undemocratic or subversive, it is a matter of fact. If you express a view that a democratically elected government doesn't have a mandate, then you are expressing an undemocratic view. That someone might choose to agree with that view or not is a matter of their opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that the view itself is undemocratic.

To use another example, Trump's view that he won the election is undemocratic, but you are free to agree with him, just as you are free to agree with the undemocratic opinion that this government doesn't have a democratic mandate.

I would never impinge on anyone's right to agree with an opinion, no matter how bizarre, how factually wrong or undemocratic that opinion is.

FG and FF's view that SF are unfit for government is contested, the polls are showing that. Particularly by a younger cohort that FF cannot afford to lose. FG seem to be happy to appeal to an older vote and allow the haemorrhaging of it's erstwhile younger voter. That is their own business.

All factors in a forthcoming GE. If we are discussing how SF will form a government, those factors are in play.

That's if we are discussing the topic and not our own views.

I think you are mixed up. Nobody made the claim that the specific make-up of a FF/FG/Green government was chosen by the public.

Instead, the subversive, untrue and undemocratic view that this government lacks a democratic mandate has been claimed to be out there, and to be influencing FF, and certain posters have equivocated on whether they support that view.

I take it from your post that you agree with me that the current coalition have a democratic mandate and that any views to the contrary are incorrect.