Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

AckwelFoley · 05-09-2022 8:02pm

Considering the current state of Irish rugby and what the IRFU have managed to achieve with such a small pool of players, I'll trust that the people involved and paying for this tour see merit in it.

I'll go with that.

aloooof · 06-09-2022 2:21pm

Interesting read:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2022/0906/1320883-urc-chief-allays-fears-over-emerging-ireland-tour/

This paragraph in particular, with regards the SA tour:

The IRFU have said the 35-player squad will largely be populated by those who have stood out at U20 level in recent years, and the URC boss says their concerns have been allayed by Irish Rugby, with Ireland's frontline internationals set to be available during that period.

RichieRich_89 · 07-09-2022 9:06pm

I think I would go with something like:

Loosehead: Jeremy Loughman, Michael Milne, Jack Boyle

Hooker: Diarmuid Barron, John McKee, Tom Stewart

Tighthead: Martin Moore, Thomas Clarkson, Dominic Robertson-McCoy, Keynan Knox

Lock: Joe McCarthy, Thomas Ahern, Cormac Izuchukwu, Brian Deeny

Blindside: Ryan Baird, David McCann

Openside: Will Connors, Scott Penny

No. 8: Max Deegan, James Culhane

Scrumhalf: Nathan Doak, Cormac Foley, Paddy Patterson

Outhalf: Ciarán Frawley, Harry Byrne, Ben Healy

Left Wing: Jordan Larmour, Aaron Sexton

Inside Centre: Chris Farrell, Ben Brownlee

Outside Centre: James Hume, Jamie Osborne

Right Wing: Robert Baloucoune

Fullback: Jimmy O'Brien, Jack Kelly

I think it's important to have a look at some tighthead options behind the main three, in case there's an injury come RWC time. Patterson's playing style reminds me of JGP, so I think he might suit Farrell's gameplan. I'd like to see them being open-minded about Jack Kelly having a future in 15s. It'd be very interesting to see what he could do, and the 7s World Series doesn't start till later in the year. Aaron Sexton has killer pace and a bit of a playmaking game. I'd like to see him involved.

Some Connacht players, like Dooley, Thornbury and Murphy, would be worth spots; Dooley's more likely to make RWC 2023 than Milne, I'd say. But these players are probable starters for Connacht, and they have a run of important games, so it might be better if they weren't selected.

I don't think playing in this would really change how well Edward Byrne, Scannell and McCloskey could perform for Ireland in future. Scannell showed in NZ he could slot in and play well. I don't think they need this involvement.

I'd guess the November squad will look broadly like the following:

Loosehead: Andrew Porter, Cian Healy, Jeremy Loughman

Hooker: Ronan Kelleher, Dan Sheehan, Rob Herring

Tighthead: Tadhg Furlong, Finlay Bealham, Tom O'Toole

Lock: James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne, Iain Henderson, Kieran Treadwell, Joe McCarthy

Blindside: Peter O'Mahony, Cian Prendergast, Ryan Baird

Openside: Josh van der Flier, Nick Timoney

No. 8: Caelan Doris, Jack Conan, Gavin Coombes

Scrumhalf: Jamison Gibson-Park, Conor Murray, Craig Casey

Outhalf: Jonathan Sexton, Joey Carbery, Ciarán Frawley, Harry Byrne

Left Wing: James Lowe, Jacob Stockdale

Inside Centre: Robbie Henshaw, Bundee Aki

Outside Centre: Garry Ringrose, James Hume

Right Wing: Mack Hansen, Robert Baloucoune, Andrew Conway

Fullback: Hugo Keenan, Jimmy O'Brien

Dubinusa · 08-09-2022 4:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119586836#Comment_119586836

Jack Kelly! Lol

Wegians89 · 08-09-2022 8:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119547496#Comment_119547496

Niall Murray or Thornbury over treadwell who’s been in camp recently. Would 100% bring Crowley. Cathal Forde over Tom Daly. Would look at Shane Jennings too.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-09-2022 9:05am

When will the squad be announced and when is the tour?

Must love hardship · 08-09-2022 9:20am

Exactly 12 months out to the World cup now. Who's your Predicted bolter to make the squad, who hasn't been involved previously.? And tip for Regular to miss out?

Mine is Doak. 9 Is a wide open position with 3 players likely to be brought. At a push or at least in training he can also cover reps at 10. With the smaller world cup squads versatility is important.

Should get plenty of game time this year.

Regulars to miss out are Earls and Aki.

aloooof · 08-09-2022 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588297#Comment_119588297

Absolutely zero chance Aki misses out, for me. I could see Earls missing out tho, just given the depth we have on the wing and his age profile.

Doak's a good shout for a bolter tho. And, adding a regular to miss out, it could be at the expense of Murray.

With my Munster hat on, someone like Knox might be an outside shot for bolter, just by dint of the fact it's a problem position for us and he's likely to see a lot of gametime this season. He'd need a pretty breakout season tho.

Kendellen might be a possibility too, but out backrow depth is pretty good also.

Former Former Former · 08-09-2022 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588297#Comment_119588297

I'd be shocked if Aki misses out.

As for a bolter who hasn't been involved previously, probably no one. We've used probably 50 players in the last 12 months. Unless one of these newly arrived IQ guys turns out to be hot sh1t like Hansen did, or a young prop can stake a claim, I'd say there is limited scope for brand new faces.

Doak needs to get ahead of Cooney first and he finished last season miles behind him.

awec · 08-09-2022 9:46am

I think Doak will be the man for the next World Cup cycle. He'll probably take Murray's place in the squad at that point.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-09-2022 10:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588351#Comment_119588351

Kendellen is a cert for the squad. He's class already and only getting better. Love his work rate.

Doak is a good shout. He's a leader on the pitch already. Thsts usually missing from young players but he had it from the start. Makes mistakes like a young player but leadership at 9 is a huge benefit in a sub scrum half closing out games.

RichieRich_89 · 08-09-2022 10:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119587968#Comment_119587968

What's wrong with Jack Kelly? He struggled with the step up from underage rugby when he played with Leinster, but he's really found his feet with the 7s. He's physical, good at breaking the line, and he's got good pace. I'd be fascinated to see him back playing high-level 15s.

I think he possibly was hampered by doing things in the wrong order. He didn't really play 7s while he was in the academy, unlike Keenan, JOB, and currently Smith and Comerford. He focused on 15s, but there wasn't much gametime for him, and he wasn't honing his skills playing 7s, and then he got cut. I'd wager he's far more composed in 15s now.

Former Former Former · 08-09-2022 10:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588476#Comment_119588476

Kendellen is a cert for the squad.

Oof, big call here. Kendellen looks like a great player but VDF is one of the best opensides in the world so he will be fighting for a squad place.

If we assume VDF, Doris and POM are nailed on, then it's probably Baird, Coombes, Conan, Timoney, Connors and Prendergast already fighting it out over two, maybe three spots? That's a lot of traffic to get through.

RichieRich_89 · 08-09-2022 10:58am

I think I'd have Kendellen behind van der Flier, Timoney, Connors, O'Mahony and Penny at openside, and behind Doris, Conan, Coombes, Deegan, Timoney and maybe Boyle at no. 8.

Paul Smeenus · 08-09-2022 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588364#Comment_119588364

While I'm not convinced Doak will go, he doesn't need to get ahead of Cooney. Farrell has proven that he doesn't care at all about provincial pecking order.

Harry Byrne hasn't had to get ahead of his brother, Treadwell hasn't had to get ahead of O'Connor, was Gibson-Park first choice at Leinster when he became first choice for Ireland?

TRC10 · 08-09-2022 12:38pm

Aki is so underrated by Irish fans it's insane

He should be one of the first names on the team sheet. Aki/Henshaw is by far Ireland's best centre pairing.

A don't give me the "it lacks creativity" nonsense, because it's BS.

molloyjh · 08-09-2022 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589220#Comment_119589220

It doesn’t lack creativity, but it is very samey. Ringrose brings a dynamism that neither of those two do. At this stage though I don’t care who starts because I’m more than happy with them all. We just need Hume to show he’s at that level too and we’re laughing.

Dubinusa · 08-09-2022 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588489#Comment_119588489

Besides the fact that he's so far down the pecking order.......

Former Former Former · 08-09-2022 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589220#Comment_119589220

I guess two points here.

Firstly, one poster ≠ "Irish fans"

Secondly, maybe he should be one of the first names on the team sheet but that's not the reality, the coaches clearly think Henshaw Ringrose is the best partnership.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-09-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588694#Comment_119588694

Yeah, true. Seems bonkers to have so many great back row options. But we grow them in Ireland. Need to start breeding big more props and second rows.

leakyboots · 08-09-2022 2:50pm

Injuries will play a part (unfortunately).

sprucemoose · 08-09-2022 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589220#Comment_119589220

it does a bit though, so its not BS. aki has improved alot in that sense recently though in fairness to him

could even argue its aki/ringrose too tbh since theyve started some of the most important wins of the last few years (england 2018, NZ 2018, NZ 2021, probably forgetting some others)

henshaw/ringrose seems to be the preferred pairing for farrell but its rare theyre all fit at the same time anyway tbh

TRC10 · 08-09-2022 4:53pm

My bolter for the RWC is Michael Milne.

Cian Healy has looked way off the pace at international level for quite some time, and if he's our bench loosehead at the world cup I think we're in real trouble.

Milne I think could have a big role to play for Leinster this season with Dooley leaving and Healy getting on. He looked good v Quins last week. He's a good size, carries well and looks solid in the scrum. I think he could establish himself as 2nd choice behind Porter. And if he does that, he's got one foot in the door for Ireland.

Keynan Knox could be another, if he establishes himself as Munster's starting TH next season. But we're not as lacking for depth at TH as we are at LH.

Must love hardship · 08-09-2022 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589220#Comment_119589220

I thought Aki was very poor towards the end of the domestic club season last year.. especially in both games v Leinster before being shifted to 13 for a game and then not in the squad for the last 2 connacht matches.

The fact that he was playing v the Maori is a sign he is slipping down the pecking order.

If Hume and then Ringrose hadn't gotten injured he may have been restricted to Moari tests only..

In 12 months time his lack of versatility may count against him if all other options are fit and Frawley travels as 3rd choice 10 and 2nd choice 12...

The squads will be smaller come the world cup and hard decisions have to be made

aloooof · 08-09-2022 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590850#Comment_119590850

I think Josh Wycherley might be in with a shot too (if possibly a bit small), but personally think Warwick deserves a shot after his form last season.

sprucemoose · 08-09-2022 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119591174#Comment_119591174

i think the fact that the RWC will be so close to home would go in aki's favour in that case though potentially, depending on how much gametime frawley gets at 10 between now and then (not much at all would be my guess im afraid). if it were further away i think they might have included a third 10 or a hybrid 10/12 like frawley, but seeing as a 10 could be brought into the squad in very little time if needed, i think they'll go with 3 9s, 2 10s and 4 centres. versatility is probably going to be less of a factor in this squad compared to 2019 i think

TomsOnTheRoof · 08-09-2022 8:14pm

People are really underrating Aki. He's been excellent for Ireland this past while and a combo of him and Henshaw seems to be our best centre partnership to my mind.

RichieRich_89 · 08-09-2022 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589397#Comment_119589397

Hugo Keenan, Jimmy O'Brien, Michael Lowry, Simon Zebo, Shane Daly, Stewart Moore, Mike Haley, Patrick Campbell, Oran McNulty, Max O'Reilly, Chris Cosgrave

Am I missing anyone? (Munster sure do have a lot of fullbacks given they don't lose any of them to Ireland)

True, Kelly would fit in towards the bottom of that pecking order.

I'm not as sold on Lowry as some. He strikes me as a bit of a highlights reel player; does he do the boring stuff to a high enough standard? And anyway, the squad I suggested included three Ulster starters (versus one each from Munster and Leinster and none from Connacht). I figure it's better not to take away too many starters from one province.

Zebo and Haley, is this the type of tour for them? They're already experienced, and it's looking as if they're not going to be involved at international level much in the future. Essentially it would be wasted invested gametime if it's given to players without much Ireland future.

The last time Daly was included for Ireland him being away was damaging for his positioning in the Munster pecking order. He still hasn't really got his mojo back. Especially under a new coaching régime, I figure he might be better off trying to re-establish himself at Munster.

I really like Stewart Moore, but it would be a heavy burden on Ulster to remove him and Hume.

Campbell looks excellent. He looks like a very complete, rounded player already. He will probably go.

So, yeah. Kelly would be a bit of a punt. But I'd like to see it. It would be a useful barometer to have of how good the 7s is at improving players. I suspect Kelly might still be at Leinster now if he had put 15s on hold and focused on 7s at the same stage of his development as Keenan and JOB did.

Must love hardship · 08-09-2022 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119591238#Comment_119591238

I would imagine that would be a massive risk. Bringing just 2 10's especially if they have the injury profile of the 2 most likely to be picked..

aloooof · 08-09-2022 9:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592045#Comment_119592045

(Munster sure do have a lot of fullbacks given they don't lose any of them to Ireland)

This isn't exactly accurate. Zebo and Daly have started 1 game at FB between them out of 36 starts across the last 2 seasons; they're being used as wingers. Of which, Conway and Earls are away with Ireland. So that balance seems completely fine to me.

I'd agree with your assesment of Zebo tho, personally can't see him going on this tour. And while I do rate Haley, I also think it's unlikely as, with a view to the RWC, it'd be atypical to bring a dedicated FB that isn't your starter in your 33.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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