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Westmeath school gets temporary injunction banning a suspended teacher from it's premises

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,010 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I'd be 100% certain Jesus hates them and that is saying something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,105 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well now.. looking at this thread objectively.. there's a lot of pitchforks being sharpened here!

    A big pile on against this lad.

    Maybe he deserves it, maybe not. I don't believe everything I read or hear that's said third party. And will reserve judgement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,387 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    The staff would be obliged to not engage in behaviour or activities that would cause distress to the child, because, you know, teachers shouldn't be deliberately causing emotional distress to their pupils. So teachers being informed of the name preference and gender neutral pronouns the child requires to be referred to and addressed as in order to avoid that emotional distress is simply a matter of duty of care.

    It doesn't matter what the teachers believe or think about the child transitioning. It does matter that they don't cause the child further distress. A name change and gender neutral pronouns won't hurt anyone and if they make this kid's life a little less stressful it's the least they can do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,728 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    He can contend whatever he likes but the "ethos" and policies of the school are entirely a matter to be decided between the BOM and the CoI diocese - subject to Dept of Education and Equal Status Act requirements etc.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,119 ✭✭✭homer911


    Just refer to all pupils by their surname, problem solved, everyone either happy or unhappy, but nobody singled out



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,728 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    This sort of equivocating, "both sides" BS might have some merit if the events occurred behind closed doors but they didn't.

    There were a LOT of witnesses around when Burke publicly went off on one, was repeatedly asked to desist, and continued to do so

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,728 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    What if an anti-divorce teacher doesn't want a pupil to be allowed to cease using their father's surname...? or start using that of their step-father?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,415 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When you/one, starts to mention such things as law, equality, gender, rights and policy, as you can see from this thread in general , it can bring out all sorts of criticism and get a lot of backs up for all sorts of reasons.

    I guess people don’t like being told what to do in general - while the sentiment of the school was, IMHO, correct and had the welfare of the child at heart, when you start to impose dictats and quote law to back up your decision, you’re possibly in unchartered waters given the recency of trans related legislation.

    I also have no doubt, that if the school had asked for a voluntary compliance by all teachers, that we’d still be in the same or similar position as it’s obvious to all, Burke wanted to make a big deal about this.

    What the actual proper or correct route to compliance with this request in a school setting, and under what legislation if any, is certainly up for debate- it still remains that Burke wouldn’t comply whether he was asked to do it voluntarily or forceably through policy and/or law.



  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭thegame983


    Just refer to everyone by a number and ditch pronoun use altogether.

    'Citizen #24867, present homework for computation' and so forth.



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  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    In the 1670s the religious zealots were the ones with the pitchforks, not the witches.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    I was actually thinking about this the other day and one of my teachers actually used to call us all by our surname, which actually would have avoided any issues if something like that happened in my class.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We have a well established fact that he went on a rant in front of members of the public, including students and parents in relation to another student. He also ignored a court injunction and continued to disrupt by showing up at the school. It's entirely unacceptable conduct that you're trying to downplay.


    There is no dispute over the fact he confronted the principal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    And there's also the point that the school's ethos and policies are in the public domain - they're available on their website. If you don't want to acknowledge that transgender people exist then don't apply for a job in a school that has inclusive policies clearly spelled out on its website.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Policies which his contract of employment likely would have called out and required agreement to. I'm guessing of course, but that would be normal



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The why doesn't excuse his actions and its his actions which have landed him in jail.

    Its also his actions that will be covered in the disciplinary hearing.

    Its his actions that will likely be reviewed by the teaching council.

    Its his actions that will be the focus of any future court decision.

    Why doesn't really come into it as that matters only to him. His actions matter to everyone



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The debate he would wish might be around how the CoI had decided these things (there was considerable division in 2018 among bishops of the Anglican tradition), what is the theological and scriptural basis, has that been formally and explicitly communicated, and on what basis the CoI sees itself as subservient to state law. I’ve posted about that already and not doing it again.

    Also before: if churches are now fully compliant with state policy there is no justification for including ethos and characteristic spirit in any documents and none for insisting on denominational education or multi denominational. Non denominational with an ethos decided on basis of human rights recognized in state law.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭Tow


    I think at this stage it has been said plenty of times that COI Schools have inclusive and supportive policies. Even see Stratford College (which is Jewish) proudly flying the LGBTQ+ flag when I go by.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,035 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    For me all those problems are like sci-fi nightmare here. How the fook any religion matter has anything to do with education. When I was enrolling my younger one to primary school, first question was what religion are you?

    Edit: In Ireland of course..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Given Enoch's anti-equality stance, I found this amusing, its from his NUIG days apparently when he went for the role of Equality officer in the students union there




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,035 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Every student matters! Says at the bottom of his plan..



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Im not so sure about that to be honest. The gender ground in the Equal Satus Acts has been interpreted to include trans people - this could potentially include people who are on the way towards transition. Its a bit of a grey area really. Really the truth is the Equal Status Acts MIGHT offer legal protection in this case. Its misinformation to claim it definitively would but its also misinformation to claim it definitively wouldnt.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid



    And do please stop posting about it - it's completely irrelevant. He's not employed by the CoI. He's employed by Wilson's Hospital School. It's as separate from the CoI as my nearest national and secondary schools are from the RC church - they're both Catholic-ethos schools, there used to be a priest on their BoM (there probably still is), but they can no longer discriminate (at least not blatantly) and the last I saw, their policies were also actually quite inclusive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,105 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Have you heard his side of the story??? I certainly haven't and I'm uneasy about the baying mob.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    His side has been widely reported, see any report on his comments to the courts



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    It's also there in his own words as he is representing himself in court.

    What we have thus far is Enoch's version of events which is quite different from everybody elses version of events - Everyone quoted has been largely consistent in their version.

    So you have the defendant saying "I did nothing wrong" and multiple other people providing very very similar accounts of him absolutely doing lots of things wrong.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    He has been saying his side in court. He’s a bigoted dickhead.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The policies have the required language on equality and inclusivity. (I haven’t seen any explicit statement on transgender in the admission policy but most people would assume it’s included under equality etc) They also have required language on ethos and characteristic spirit. There is sufficient ground to make a case (before what forum is a different story) that the latter can negate part of the former. Making a case and winning a case are different things. As a religious entity the CoI could clarify theologically how it has squared the circle. As I said earlier in the thread the CoI ethos is usually elastic.

    In regard to your other post I’m afraid you don’t understand the structure of second level schools. If you look at the admission policy again you will see how specific are the links to the CoI. As other posters here and on Twitter have noted, what if Mr Burke decided his god told him something else was unacceptable?

    Or now that the RC or CoI bishops decided that their god made divorced parents unsuitable? You can’t simply gasp and say they’ve modernized, they’d never do that, they’re inclusive, they’re lovely, whatever, when they have exactly the same mechanism open to them as Mr Burke: the scriptures, theology and traditions of their church and they are the decisive authority on what that means. A parallel authority which they regard as ultimately superior.

    We can all see that Mr Burke is in jail for the contempt. But the mechanism which enabled him to start on this road is embedded in Irish schools through Irish law. Many do not want the issue ventilated. I’d hope that those who want this issue ended for the good of the student concerned don’t neglect to understand the mechanism that gave rise to it.

    TL;DR It’s complicated.



This discussion has been closed.
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