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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    if it were far away then yes, since its in france not as much. like i said it depends on how much time at 10 frawley gets between now and then, but if we take the hypothetical of both JC and JS getting injured and frawley gets minimal exposure at 10 for leinster, i much prefer they bring an actual 10 in from outside the squad than shoehorn someone in who it isnt their regular position. now, that is also taking for granted that this 3rd 10 option (harry byrne/ ben healy/ billy burns/ whoever) would have been involved in the training squads pre rwc and could fit into the system as easily as possible.

    different story if the RWC was going to be somewhere that involved long travel like NZ or Japan. the close proximity to home means versatility is less important imo



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Regardless of where a world cup is held when a change to the squad is made its still 48 hours before they can play a game etc when called up to the squad

    with two 10s and one of them gets an injury 2 days before a key game their replacement cant play in that game



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I strongly suspect that there will be 3 outhalves in the Irish squad.


    The third may be there purely so Sexton doesn't need to put any minutes in on the Romania game. A sad reality of having a 38 year old first choice outhalf.


    At any rate it is a 33 man squad compared to 31 at the last World Cup so there is some extra flexibility there.


    Regarding centre Aki, Ringrose and Henshaw are imo the top 3 centres in Ireland. I don't think there is necessarily a top pair. Injuries and form can separate them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    in that absolute worst case scenario then yeah having frawley in the squad could potentially be helpful if he gets more time at 10 for leinster in the meantime. if he doesnt get much (or any, which is still a real possibility tbh) time before then i dont think it would go particularly well unfortunately

    obviously things like form etc, can change massively between now and then, but if i werent picking a squad id have the three obvious ones and either hume or farrell as my fourth. going on current exposure at 10 id have murray as my emergency back up in your situation

    i should say i hope 3 10s are picked but 3 actual 10s playing week in week out for their province in the position. whether that will happen with frawley between now and then remains to be seen but if he stays at 12 then he should be seen as one - madigan should be a warning against trying to fit talented players into important positions



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I suppose so. It's not as pronounced as it was last season anyway, when they also had Gallagher and Flannery.

    I was interested to see Zebo back at 15 for the warm up games. Maybe Prendergast's influence will see him revert mostly to playing there. I think he played mostly 15 for Racing under Prendergast when he started games. He can do either; he's a deadly finisher on the wing, and a good playmaker and good under the high ball at 15.

    I think Daly's best position is probably 15.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I thought Aki was very poor towards the end of the domestic club season last year.. especially in both games v Leinster before being shifted to 13 for a game and then not in the squad for the last 2 connacht matches.

    I agree, but he was excellent for Ireland in the summer (much better than Ringrose). That counts for a lot more in terms of picking Ireland's best team. In fact he's always been incredibly consistent and reliable ever since his debut. I can't remember a big win Ireland have had since 2017, that didn't have Aki at 12.

    The fact that he was playing v the Maori is a sign he is slipping down the pecking order.

    Is it? He played the first Mäori game when he was literally one of two 12s available. H.Byrne was injured so Frawley was playing 10. Aki and Henshaw were the only options at 12. If H.Byrne hadn't been injured, it would have been Frawley at 12.

    The squads will be smaller come the world cup and hard decisions have to be made

    Leaving out one of your two best centres doesn't sound like a particularly smart decision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    If they took three 10s in 2015 and 2019 when it was a 31-man squad it'd be a bit strange to only take two now you're allowed 33 in the squad.

    Maybe they'd do it if they had two players who could cover whose primary positions were elsewhere - like Doak at 9 and Frawley at 12. Probably only room for 4 centres, though, so Frawley at 12 would only happen if one of Henshaw and Aki was unavailable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,567 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Who thinks Leo will give Frawley time at oh? It's a leap to suggest that he's going to be in the mix for the rwc squad, as a 10!

    I can't see him getting past RB or HB, unless there's a glut of injuries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    alot of people seem to think so. i dont see it personally but stranger things have happened. ngatai joining is seen as a reason but he does cover most of the backline



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'd pretty much agree with this, but would add that, even leaving aside the Aki vs Henshaw vs Ringrose debate, there's absolutely no question Aki's in our top 3 centres. Hume has shown a lot of promise, but I don't see any scenario, outside of injury, where Aki doesn't travel.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Regarding centre Aki, Ringrose and Henshaw are imo the top 3 centres in Ireland. I don't think there is necessarily a top pair. Injuries and form can separate them.

    It's pretty clear that Farrell prefers Henshaw-Ringrose; when all three are fit, that is the first-choice pairing.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    That does seem to be the case. I'd wager more often than not, one has been injured. (I'd actually be really interested in an in-depth article breaking that down tbh).

    And we know Farrell likes to rewards form; it's possible Aki was on a low ebb of form during the few periods when all 3 were available. That was certainly the case at the start of the Summer tour, say.

    One interesting point tho is that, in the biggest wins (and performances) in Farrell's tenure, Aki has had a pretty central role. He:

    • Started the 2021 6 Nations game vs England (which is basically where things started to click).
    • Started the 2021 AI vs NZ
    • Came off the bench for an injured Ringrose to play 50 mins in the 2nd Test vs NZ this Summer
    • Started the 3rd Test vs NZ this Summer




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    You can add the 2nd test v NZ to that list. Aki played most of that game at 12.

    Edit: Apologies, you already included it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,236 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I do. I think the question of who is leinster's next 10 after sexton retires, isn't settled. I'd say (and i hope) Frawley will get some gametime early in this season at 10.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    One for the Munster thread but that’s an interesting point about Zebo largely playing 15 under Prendergast at Racing. Huge boot too which is an asset there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I see Oli Jager has signed on for 2 more years with the Crusaders.

    With Fletcher Newell leapfrogging him from club level to getting international minutes you'll have to imagine he will find it extremely tough to get those all black minutes he has ambitions on .

    Fair play to him for following the dream however..



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Couldn't get past Mike Ala'alatoa in the Crusaders team.

    Can't make the extended squad of a team we're currently better than and beat in their own backyard.

    You'd have to think he's just not that good, and if he didn't happen to play in NZ, most people wouldn't even know his name.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,567 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    True enough. Fair play to him for trying. I think he will never be capped by the kiwis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    He just had his first season as a Super Rugby starter.


    I reckon he has a good chance of being capped but it might only be sneaking when there is a few injuries.

    Being in a country with 4-5 professional teams means that if you hang around for long enough as top 1-2 in your province means you can sneak through and be capped. As a prop he probably has 7-10 years left as a first line professional.

    https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/oliver-jager-38379.html



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I argue at this stage it's highly unlikely b he'll get capped. He's been over taken at crusaders level by Newell, and also had Williams as the next great kiwi prop hope coming as well.

    He hasn't stood out for Canterbury either, starting one game from the bench



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Ireland A vs New Zealand XV

    Friday November 4th in the RDS

    Great idea from the Union. More development for the second tier is a good thing and a game vs New Zealand definitely won't hurt.

    Hopefully they are in talks for a possible game or two against A sides during the six nations too.

    Emerging Ireland Squad to tour in South Africa to be named this week.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,358 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    That’s another good move I think, great to see them trying things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Injuries aside is Kelleher still 1st choice hooker? Sheehan didn't do much wrong in his absence.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think this is brilliant, and I love the amount of gametime we'll be getting into developmental players this season, between this fixture, the Emerging Ireland tour, and even the Munster fixture against the Springboks. Plus, a full November test series on top of that.

    Will force all of the provinces to dig a little deeper, and give game time to some recent or current U20s and some AIL talent in certain circumstances.

    Most important thing I think for Irish rugby is to keep working to expand our player pool.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sheehan had a very good Summer tour. I don't think there is really anything between them albeit I think the scrum is a bit more solid with Kelleher.

    It's great depth to have and I very much rate Herring also.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,236 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    When he broke through (in 2020?) I thought he was as good, if not better than Kelleher.

    RK had the year or two headstart on DS in school and then in the leinster academy anf then experience with the Leinster and Ireland forst teams. But that will balance out as they reach their physical maturity and DS gets his experience.

    I honestly don't have a huge preference between the 2 but I think DS's size is a big help. Whichever one is better and deserves the position should be picked. It's an excellent position for both Ireland and leinster to have such excellent options at hooker.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    The Ireland A fixture is good news. And hopefully Farrell takes performances in that game into consideration for the Fiji and Australia games.

    But you can understand why a lot of people are annoyed about it being in The RDS. The Dublin people have hardly been deprived of matches over the last decade. Would seem a perfect opportunity to spread international (mens) rugby around the island to Limerick or Belfast for the first time in god knows how long. The IRFU really don't help themselves sometimes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Totally agree. A game in Thomond or Ravenhill would have been great, We need to spread our internationals around and as mens seniors cant play outside Dublin the rest should be played elsewhere



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    While generally I agree with you I would have a slight reservation.


    If Ireland A are sharing a camp and coaches with the senior team dublin makes a degree of sense to save travel.


    I do agree it's not ideal though.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,358 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I think they usually leave camp the day or two before the match and move into a Dublin hotel do it makes sense to be playing nearby.



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