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Robert Troy - Property Mogul

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭Good loser


    That's a sure recipe for driving landlords out of business. Plus it may protect existing tenants but at the expense of new (or potential) tenants.

    It removes or severely restricts the rights of ownership. Property rights with all sorts of hard to foresee consequences. Imo the LESS the State interferes in the property business the better. Landlords and tenants should be allowed agree any length of lease they want.

    My nephew left a relatively new house in a town a few years ago to move to a new job. He thought he would rent the house out for two years before selling. The strong advice was not to do so; he left it vacant. Another friend had a house rented for 16 years in Cork (4 terms of 4 yrs); she was quite prepared to continue but was advised that if tenancy went beyond 16 years she could NEVER regain possession. Tenants were given notice and left.

    Issue discussed re US in this week's Economist. Rent controls a bad idea in the round - they favour the better off rather than the poor. Politicians like them because they cost nothing - to the State



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Property rights in the constitution favour the owner of the property - hugely. A constitutional amendment is required to redress this.

    When you, as a landlord, rent out a property you cede some of your property rights, and that is what a lease does. However, the landlord can evict a tenant on specious grounds - that should be eliminated. The excuse of selling the property and therefore the requirement for vacant possession is such a specious ground. In the commercial letting world the tenant is unaffected in most such transactions.

    It must be possible to create a new balance in the letting business. It has worked in the employment sphere, so it must be possible in the rental area too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Employment sphere what?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    How can as landlord evict someone. How much should it cost?

    Because that's the issue.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The issue is security of tenure. Landlords are too powerful if they can evict a tenant who is paying rent, and complying with the lease.

    Now certain landlords have been caught with the 'rent pressure zones' where their rents were below par but could not increase them. That is easy to fix through the RTB using a rent review procedure (that does not exist currently).

    You cannot be sacked without due process - the same type of system should apply to tenancy issues - both for landlords and tenants. For example, non-paying of rent should be close to near instant eviction - assuming landlord is not at fault. Return of deposits should also be an issue dealt by the RTB.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If it takes upwards of two years and tens of thousands, the issue is not security of tenure.

    Also if there was supply so that you could move somewhere else tomorrow, then the issue of tenure would be moot.

    But since there is no supply everything that causes supply to decease even further, will only make things worse.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If there was security of tenure, then that would have to rely on the rent being paid and the (reasonable) terms of the lease complied with, the tenant can not be evicted, otherwise a month's notice is all that is needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well they have security of tenure without rent being paid.

    The next move is to make it a forever home.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    That is the problem. It is a forever home only if the rent is paid. Otherwise the whole rental market fails - as it is now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭Good loser




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭newmember2




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    No I am not - I never mentioned lifetime anything.

    If the rent is paid, the lease is certain for the duration of the lease - that is what complying with the terms of the lease.

    If I rent a house on a three year lease, then if I pay the rent, comply with the lease, I am certain for the three years. In commercial leases, three years is normal, with the option to continue.

    Now there could be a term that the lease can be extended with the agreement of both sides, but that is only with agreement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You're wrong. The market is failing because of lack of supply. Primarily in social housing but that spread the problem through the market.

    The forever home, inability to evict in a timely manner causes landlords to leave but at a slow rate. Which compounds the lack of supply.

    Ultimately ignoring the issues for landlords is sawing at the branch tenants are sitting on. One depends on the other.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Housing and supply are complex issues only solved by a massive increase in supply.

    Why do LAs not build houses like they did when Ballyfermot, Ballymun, Finglas and all the other housing estates were built?

    Of course, planning leads to nimby types object to any development in the precinct. As I said, complex.



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭pjcb




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭Good loser


    I told you above LAs do not build houses because they are cheaper to buy!! They are buying houses all the time. If a LA builds a house for 400K what is the point if it can buy one for 300K. Estate agents are continually offering houses to LAs for purchase; the LAs will reject plenty when they figure out the costs of renovation.

    It's the money that's the snag.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    LA used to build houses. Ballyfermot, Ballymun, Finglas, etc. They were well built and well designed.

    They stopped building them and sold many off to the tenants at heavily discounted prices. As a consequence, they got rid of all the expertise within the structure and now cannot do anything. It was short sighted penny pinching that allowed their stock of housing to to get so low that they had to buy on the open market causing prices to rise to unaffordable levels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭Good loser


    It probably was short sighted to sell off (I notice SF support this policy). The problem for the LAs was that the income (rent) for the houses didn't cover the maintenance costs so selling off was a win-win in the short term. The shortage of houses then was a problem for central Govt - the LAs weren't blamed or obliged.

    What's done is done. The development of the sub contracting system means the old ways cannot ever be reinstated - those days are gone. So calling for LAs to directly build again is pointless distraction (leave that to PBP numbskulls). I doubt very much if even any of maintenance work is done by LA employees anymore.

    A close friend of mine worked for most of his life on LA staff doing maintenance on houses, retired 12 years. About 35 years ago his foreman got his wish and got the go ahead from Council to build a few new houses from the scratch. They were badly burned in the transaction. Never again became the catchword.

    For colour I will quote something I read about 5 years ago on boards 'working on a Govt construction job for the last two weeks - - - the waste is amazing. On a scale I could never have imagined. Everything is on days work and everyone knows it too.'



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I agree the LA building houses is no longer possible because they no longer have the skills in house.

    However, they could have the architects and contract management skills developed in house, or hire them.

    For example, take the Glass Bottle site, they could plan the layout, the size and density of the development, the mix of each property size and type, and provide costings. Divide the project into groups of buildings and look for bids for each group. The contractors would be qualified builders, not developers, and by varying the size of the groups, the number of builders could be maximised. They could also provide a level of finance through Gov agencies. Now the secret is to keep the number of buildings in each group within the capability of each contract.

    This would make the LA the developer, rather than the contractor. The developer would normally subcontract out the work so it just moves the top layer into LA control. Management would be crucial, but likely outside the competence of LA skills.

    The National Treasury Management Agency has managed the Gov debt very well since its inception and that was an example of solving a national problem by thinking outside the box.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Exactly.

    LA's don't lay pipe, dig roads or collect rubbish, but it gets done for them, by magic I suppose.

    Buying is possibly, in some circumstances cheaper than building, (although I doubt it) as regards a one off. Building en masse is much much cheaper than building a one off. If buying was cheaper nobody would be building. It's an idiotic premise often used as slight of hand to excuse over a decade of a malfunctioning not fit for purpose housing agenda geared towards the private market.

    FF/FG have failed. It's over. Done. There is no mythical turnaround on the horizon. And we know at least Robert Troy likes it that way.

    Turns out many landlords are leaving the market because they were in negative equity, so became landlords, now they are selling.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭Good loser


    'If buying was cheaper nobody would be building' You call this an idiotic premise!! How about this - if building was cheaper the LAs would be building their own houses. You, purposely or otherwise, skate around the crucial qualifier, namely for LAs it is cheaper to buy rather than to build.

    Did you know that the cost of maintenance of the average LA house in Dublin is only €1,000 more than the average rent? So the NET RENT is that figure. (That figure is a few years old now so the current net might be nil.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    As the OP states, 'more questions than answers here' and yet this guy has not just been totally vindicated but lionised by the Taoiseach.

    There is clearly more out there and yet the government are in a hurry to move on, we can but wonder why.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,506 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The RTE Investigates program on councils showed that this kind of corruption is commonplace but usually goes unpunished because 'investigations' never end. Red rotten.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    So buying a house for €500,000 and putting a tenant in results in how much rent for the LA?

    It is reckoned by various agencies that 30% of the population requires subsidised housing - used to be called council housing, but is now called social housing. It is accepted that a certain percentage of the population requires social welfare, and farmers need subsidy to produce food. It is part of our society, and the support it gives to the most needy.

    Since the 1980s, it has been Gov policy of every Gov, to stop building council houses, and expect the private market to provide housing. The result has been continuously rising house prices, and continuously rising private rental costs. It has now got to crisis levels where there are no houses for sale, and no houses to rent, and rents are totally unaffordable without huge HAP subsidies.

    There is a housing scandal of which Robert Troy is the unacceptable face - and has been caught out because of his contempt for the rules relating to parliamentary disclosure and those that apply through the TRB. Neither of these would be odious to comply with - except for someone having something to hide.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    You seemed to have cherry picked the comment.

    Developers don't build at a loss or for a hobby.

    I literally specified one off builds from en masse builds. Its likely cheaper for a developer to build a one off house than an individual hiring a developer. The price would not be far off buying.

    Now you are on to maintenance, which will be an issue whether the house was bought, built or leased. Can you supply a link on it costing that? If true you are saying we break even on housing people in LA owned properties which is great, especially when compared to 25 year leased properties, private rentals or purchased ones.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭Good loser


    You're all over the place - hiding your ignorance in obscurities and irrelevancies.

    What does 'It's likely cheaper for a developer to build a one off house than an individual hiring a developer' actually mean? Sounds like gobbledygook to me! A person building a one-off house hires a builder - not a developer.

    My comment on maintenance related to Dublin some years ago. It's relevance is that when social housing is provided the average tenant pays nothing effectively as any rent they pay is gobbled up by maintenance; they are all getting FREE houses. I have no problem with that by the way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭Good loser


    In Dublin the answer to your question line 1 is likely NIL - mtce costs swallow all the rent.

    You quite wrongly seem to equate not building with not providing. Surely you can understand the difference - especially as I have pointed it out to you a number of times. It doesn't matter in the slightest to any social tenant where the house comes from or how it's built. Why then do you make a fetish of how the houses are built?

    You say we're at a crisis where there are no house for sale! Didn't they say on the news last night that a new peak number of houses has been built this year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    You are the one missed the very comments you quoted from.

    They also hire an architect and might consult a planner, so what? Looks like you are trying to squeeze out a win off of an irrelevance.

    So you avoided my responses regarding the silly notion that building one house is the same as building numerous houses. When you buy a car do you have it made to order? You do know it's cheaper if you buy them off an assembly line?

    It wasn't relevant to the topic we were discussing. Related I'll agree. People housed in council owned, leased, bought or rented will have the same maintenance bills. And I read your claim, (and requested a link) and took it onboard and said it was great. As a tax payer I would rather break even by suppling council built housing rather than buying or leasing. You just said they paid rent now you are saying 'free'. I don't think it's me who's 'all over the place'. I helped to pay for that housing and I'm very happy to. Ah cool so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭Good loser




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