Westmeath school gets temporary injunction banning a suspended teacher from it's premises

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2022 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119594610#Comment_119594610

You can have whatever type of school you like if you fund it privately.

Bizarrely for a developed country, the Dept of Education will not fund a school unlesss it has a "denomination".

Faugheen · 10-09-2022 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599212#Comment_119599212

You’re the one talking about others blundering into ‘a complex area’. There is nothing complex about this case. The only one trying to make it complex is you.

You said what you said. I read it, I quoted it and I responded. You said this was a ‘complex area’, don’t tell me I’m not reading when you’re the one tying yourself in knots just to avoid holding your hands up and then gaslighting the rest of us because you can’t keep your sh*t together.

The fact there are three posters who don’t seem to be reading your posts properly (at least in your eyes) says that the problem isn’t with them, it’s with you.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119596960#Comment_119596960

Complete rubbish I'm afraid, both about ETs and CoI schools.

Usual ignorant nonsense spouted about ETs which we have come to expect from people with zero experience of them.

The local CoI school which my child attends has been well under 50% CoI for a very long time now and its "status" has never been threatened. It's also in no way elitist. It just happens to be the only English-medium, co-educational, non-RCC school in the area.

10-09-2022 12:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597452#Comment_119597452

The silent majority angle has been run out for every issue around, especially in relation to issues with people being treated equally. Yet the results of the SSM and repeal votes where it was claimed by some that the silent majority would keep the status quo didn't really work out for them.

10-09-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599466#Comment_119599466

You see if you actually read them and understood them you would have seen that repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly I have said that Mr Burke’s claims have no bearing on the contempt case, likely no bearing on the disciplinary hearing and might get a hearing in some other forum. That doesn’t seem to register. At this stage, probably deliberately. That’s fine. If you don’t want to look beyond that, don’t! Enjoy your sunny Saturday.

10-09-2022 1:00pm

My daughter finished secondary about 8 years ago and had a very "catholic" religion teacher who eventually had to "retire" because they literally couldn't handle what they called "defiance" from the students when they tried to teach their so-called "christian" opinions as fact. (I've posted about this before).

Eventually, the kids pushed back. They just refused to listen to it. Overall, in my experience of my daughter's generation (mid 20s now) and younger generations, is they are much more clued in and accepting , and any homophobic or transphobic crap just doesn't wash with them.

In my generation, you wouldn't have got up and walked out of anything if a teacher was ranting. You'd have got in more trouble if you did.

The fact that the students got up and walked out here, says they don't support Burke.

10-09-2022 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599481#Comment_119599481

The question of why we persist with denominational education and “ethos” and insist on it legally is the elephant in the room. There are so many vested interests who are catered for before the needs of parents and students you would expect serious investigative journalism to be probing what is going on.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2022 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119597396#Comment_119597396

Awful lot of tosh in that article tbh.

10-09-2022 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599540#Comment_119599540

It’s of its era but it does capture the understanding of ethos. To many parents and students this never really affects them. That’s just the way things are.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2022 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599025#Comment_119599025

Nope. Pupils (and staff) walked out of the service when Enoch went off on one. Why on earth would anyone think they might want to support the victimisation of one of their fellow pupils by a member of staff?

Thankfully things have greatly changed since my or your schooldays

10-09-2022 1:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599434#Comment_119599434

Sandymount High School did start out as a fee paying school, but later was funded by D/Education.

I was a student there, as were all my siblings, and we didn't pay any fees. It closed in 1999, I don't know why.

It does seem to have been a complete anomaly of a school.

Faugheen · 10-09-2022 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599512#Comment_119599512

Thankfully my religion teacher, while very religious herself, knew exactly what it was about. She encouraged questioning of faith and encouraged the questioning of why some ‘issues’ (such as homosexuality) existed in Christianity. This was a Christian Brothers school, btw.

FoxForce5 · 10-09-2022 2:06pm

Shock horror, Catholic schools have the most diverse student populations.

https://www.thejournal.ie/catholic-primary-schools-diversity-divestment-facts-ireland-3252590-Mar2017/

J.O. Farmer · 10-09-2022 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599559#Comment_119599559

To be fair my point is nobody knows for sure what all the students think, perhaps teenagers these days are more mature, I don't have dealings with too many to know and I doubt many people have dealings beyond certain groups of friends who are likely be like minded given they are friends. It doesn't mean any given group of teenagers is representative of all.

That some walked out doesn't mean anything about the views that didn't. It would be ridiculous if anyone were to claim that those that didn't walkout agreed with Bourke as they stayed.

In reality there's likely to be a range of views as there is in any large group.

I also said students may support Bourkes actions towards the principal. This is clearly different and separate to his motivation. I believe it is his actions to towards the principal that got him suspended and lead to where he is now rather than his beliefs.

If he had raised his objections in a more reasonable way there may have been a solution which didn't result in his suspension.

10-09-2022 2:14pm

As I posted earlier, my secondary school had a religion teacher who was a fundamental christian and yet they managed to teach without pushing their view on the students. And that was 40 years ago.

So Enoch doing it across a whole school - students and teachers alike - in 2022? Let him feck off with himself, who does he think he is.

Furze99 · 10-09-2022 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599483#Comment_119599483

Perhaps but the 'silent majority' as you call them still constitute a sizable group in society. And I'm prepared to speculate and no more that your average fee paying parent in Wilsons is more likely to be in this more conservative group. What people say openly and what they think privately are too different things usually.

freshpopcorn · 10-09-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599818#Comment_119599818

See the problem is your dealing with the Bourke family and they aren't reasonable.

Look at them at NUIG.

The court cases.

During the referendums.

Now with the school.

Of course they are teachers and students out their now that may have issues with LGBT people and sometimes these can be acomanated but you can see with Enoch's behavior you aren't dealing with a reasonable person.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-09-2022 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599872#Comment_119599872

Same issue as Burke: they knew (or should have known) the school's ethos before engaging.

In any case, if the kids are walking out, it doesn't really matter what the parents think. They can't force their kids to respect Burke, but they can pull their kids out of the school and send them somewhere else. One way or the other, they'd be setting themselves up for a prolonged confrontation with their kids.

J.O. Farmer · 10-09-2022 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599939#Comment_119599939

I agree, if it was someone else with the same beliefs and position it's likely most people outside of the area would never have heard about the teacher.

Really it was the escalation where the school had to bring an injunction brought this to most peoples attention. That is down to Bourkes actions in attending a place of work while suspended and then disobeying orders of a judge to stop attending.

The Bourkes are hard line extremists, taking hard line extreme views on anything never works. It alienates the majority.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2022 3:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599496#Comment_119599496

Burke is not going to be able to force the school to change its policies so it doesn't matter a damn where his arguments are or are not heard.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599557#Comment_119599557

It's of this era too really as practically nothing has changed in relation to our education system since, despite the many changes in other aspects of our society and the almost elimination of any religious influence outside of education.

E.g. it was unthinkable 20 years ago that we would legalise abortion, or that fewer than half of all marriages would take place in a church.

Unfortunately there are still many parents who think religion is a load of nonsense but just go along with it and won't opt their kids out, this makes life much harder for those parents with sincere objections to religious instruction for their kids. The parents who actively want religious instruction are definitely a minority but the whole system is set up to suit them.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2022 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599783#Comment_119599783

Well duh, they make up 89% of primary schools after all and are the 'default' school type. And those figures are from 2007...

10-09-2022 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599872#Comment_119599872

They might be more fiscally conservative but socially, unlikely. We've been through multiple referendums and were promised a silent majority each time. Each time, the no vote tended to get smaller. So I'd say there's unlikely to be any parents in the school that are gonna be pushing for Enoch to be reinstated. If anything, they're probably pissed that he's disrupting their education.

santana75 · 10-09-2022 4:04pm

I think Enoch Burke's approach is a little heavy handed. He didn't have to turn up at the school and insist upon teaching the students when he'd been put on leave. That said I admire his courage and his willingness to stand up against what is wrong and ordering a teacher to refer to a student by certain pronouns is wrong. Its oppressive and it seems that people think this student is the victim because the nasty religious man wont call them something other than he or she. In the Bible it says God made them "Man and woman", it makes no mention of anything else. So Enoch Burke is 100% right in refusing to use anything other than he or she. It also says in the bible, "They will say that evil is good and good is evil". Thats exactly whats happening here, this teacher and his family are being called all sorts of names, most people are against them, they think that Enoch burke is the bad guy for standing up for what it says in the bible, they're saying that good is evil. It sets a very dangerous precedent to try and force people to use certain words, thats trying to slip tyranny in under the radar, to conceal it behind a veil of "Compassion" and "Inclusivity". Theres nothing compassionate about this.

Suckler · 10-09-2022 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119600190#Comment_119600190

"It says in the Bible...." - That's the end of your argument.

10-09-2022 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119600060#Comment_119600060

Unfortunately there are still many parents who think religion is a load of nonsense but just go along with it and won't opt their kids out, this makes life much harder for those parents with sincere objections to religious instruction for their kids. The parents who actively want religious instruction are definitely a minority but the whole system is set up to suit them.

I think there's a slight misunderstanding here about religion, and those who go along with it. Many parents wouldn't be practicing Catholics themselves, but they have some respect for the morality they received themselves in school. I know that boards has a lot of posters with extremely negative views about both religion and the instruction of that religion, but in many schools, the teaching of religion is less focused on dogma, and more on being a better person. Parents are aware of that.. and that's why they're willing to go along with it. God knows there's a general lack of instruction in general morality within society as things stand now, so people are fine with it coming from the religious teachers.

The parents wanting religious instruction are those who want their kids to be given the more traditional (40-50 years ago) focus on Christianity as a religion, to be taught as a religion. However, I know teachers (religious orders) who have religious classes, and they spend most of their time talking about morality, and cover all the religions with a mind of informing children with choices. Very little of the holier than thou attitude that was present when my parents went to schools here.

I went to schools who were reputed to be religious, and they were quite open minded, encouraging students to make an informed acceptance of being Christian. I had religious teachers who spoke openly about homosexuality in a neutral manner, or the practical considerations of teenage pregnancies (a big problem in my area), or spent extensive time introducing/explaining other religions to us. I think that's what most parents believe happens in schools. Their kids are not being indoctrinated. They're being educated, and ultimately will make the choice for themselves as they become teenagers whether they want to be religious or not. Same with the values, and morality imparted by their teachers.. a lot will be discarded as kids become teems. Any sensible parent will recognise that their kids will make those decisions for themselves as they develop... and so, keeping/removing religious classes isn't such a big deal.

CatFromHue · 10-09-2022 4:23pm

He didn't teach the student so he wasn't in a position to call them anything.

Accommodations could have been made if he was needed to teach them. There's usually more than one teacher for each subject in a school, so the subject rostering could have just been moved about. This would have involved him engaging with the school in a professional manner. Instead he chose to go his own way which was one of public confrontation which was only going to end one way.

The situation we have now really didn't need to happen this way, a far better solution could be found.