Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

I havent read in detail how the contract penalties work but I am beginning to think that Bus Companies get incentivised to cancel a bus so it doesnt show up late on their punctuality statistics.

The penalties in the contracts are not sufficient. End of story.

Cheaper also to cancel than operate late.

Valid point about GAIs Ballymount base and the distance from some of their termini. Another problem I feel is their widespread interworking. If a duty on the 17 is off then that can mean some departures on the 114 won't operate either. Some duties in Dun Laoghaire seem to work across multiple routes. That just cancels departures on even more routes if there's no driver for it.

Oh I know DB interwork but nothing like GAI does, relative to. Also scheduling say a 75 to go from Tallaght to DL and then do, say, a 45A is on a different level to having a bus work in as 7 and back out as a 7A.

To the best of my knowledge though, the routes you mentioned aren't actually interworked, unless it's case of a 14 breaking in town and going on to the 61 after break or something like that. They do share the same pool of drivers though I think

GAI pools their duties as follows:

[0] Mon-Fri split shifts; [1] 175; [2] 45A+59+63/A+75/A; [3] 45A/B+111; [4] 45A+111+184+185; [5] 33A+33B+102; [6] 17+114; [7] L51+L52+104+220/A+238+270; [8] 18+76/A+236/A; [9] school service extras.

Admittedly I'm not sure if the N6 pool just replaced the 17A pool directly or what the story actually is.

When the L51 and L52 replaced the 239, a lot of interworking was actually toned down in that package: buses stay on the L51 or L52 throughout the day with just limited route changes, and even duty mixing is limited between the L52 and the 104+220 or 238 or 270.

A large portion of interworking is due to the running times and trip timings making it inefficient to run buses on just one route in a circle when there's another service it can work earlier. The 75 is heavily mixed into 45A+59+63 because it's used to bring the buses closer to Ballymount in revenue: for most of the day, 75s arriving in Tallaght have drivers about to finish their day, and similarly 75s departing from The Square are drivers just after starting their duty. Of course there's some interworking that only really happens at roster level, like pool "4" above, where most duties would have either DL (45A and 111) or Bray (184 and 185) routes only for the entire day, they're just mixed in that some days may be in Bray whereas others might be in DL.

For comparison, Dublin Bus interworking at the moment amounts to:

7/A/B/D - negligent as very few duties would work out of Mountjoy Square on the bus they just arrived on without breaking, but it's there; 14+61 - only at driver level - it used to include the 161 before GAI; 15A/B/D - only at driver level, 15A and 15B/D buses are kept separate; 26+L53 - varies a lot, there's some route changing in LVSC, but just as likely to stay on just one route - the 26 used to be part of the 66 family before the C Spine; 27+77A from Ringsend only - only at driver level; 38/A/B/D+70 - mostly at driver level, but there is some terminus bus mixing as well; 39/A - mostly at driver level; 40/B/D from Harristown only - only at driver level between cross-city 40 and the 40B/D, but the latter two are mixed at terminus as well; 41/B/C - ignorable, not to the level of the 7s, but still; 42+43 - it used to be driver level only, but it may have changed; 44/B - only at driver level; 46A+47 - only at driver level; 65/B - only at driver level; 68/A+69 - varied, depending on the time of the day; 79/A - ignorable, it's there at driver level and to minor extent at bus level; 145+84X - a lot of the morning 84Xs would go empty to Heuston to continue as 145s - it used to include the 184 before GAI; C1+C2 - route changes happen at either terminus throughout the day; C3+C4 - night service mixed at both termini, but daytime mixing at Ringsend only; H2+H3 - ideologically a remnant of old 31/A/B+32, but now it's a lot more mixed now than before, with a lot more bus mixing; L58+L59 - route changes at either terminus.

If it's not listed, it operates as a standalone route or it's formed completely out of duties that aren't associated with any routes (Universals, etc.), but memory may have failed me too. Interworking "only at driver level" means that buses stay on one route throughout the day (perhaps with just once-off exceptions), but duties may be mixed by including pieces on different routes before and after the break.

One of the wildest schedules used to be the 26+66/A/B/E bill up until last year's C Spine introduction, which could see a bus become anything upon arrival at Mountjoy Square (just as likely to stay on the same road as to rebrand), and in fact included route changes in Maynooth between the 66 and 66E as well - although it was a lot more calm on the weekends.

As I said above, "[a] large portion of interworking is due to the running times and trip timings making it inefficient to run buses on just one route in a circle when there's another service it can work earlier". This is particularly evident with GAI's low frequency services - they operate a lot of routes that run every 30 or every 60 minutes. There is nothing worse than a route whose running time from terminus A to terminus Z is very similar or just above that same route's frequency or half thereof, such as the f-60 routes, as it makes for extremely inefficient work - a route that takes 65 minutes from A to Z and 65 min back operating at f-60 means that a bus has to waste away 50 minutes for every three hours (27.7%) doing nothing useful, and the same applies to a route that takes 35 min each way at f-60, except it's even worse as it's 50 minutes out of 120, or 41.6% of the time. The argument that it ensures that delays don't affect the service isn't worth it when it means that another driver has to be provided and rostered to cover the service (and the most expensive element of every kilometre covered should, no matter what, be the driver, followed by the fuel - and a bus+driver standing at a terminus means that the kilometres before and after it become more expensive). Hence, if a bus can be made do anything else other than standing around, well then, all the better. DB can largely ignore the problem because they don't really run that many low frequency services any more - and the ones that they do are optimised decently enough for what they are - so they can just keep the routes scheduled separately (another argument is that there aren't that many multi-route termini either), because the pool of work is large enough to create an efficient enough schedule - and you'll notice a few of the less frequent services are either attached to each other (42+43, 68+69), or to some far more frequent service (14+61, 39/A, 44/B).

For all the reading I have done of the GAI contract and its schedules, I haven't been able to find anything to indicate a heavier penalty for cancelling the last service - only for not operating mileage (as well as the abhorrently stupid contract phrasing regarding departures starting 6 or more minutes late being counted as not operated at all...).

Yeah not as extreme as GAI but still goes on with DB however there was quite a bit of interworking going on with the Blanch locals prior to GAI. I believe DB used to interwork the 236, 238, 239 and 270 on the one bill which isn't too far off what GAI do although that may have been exclusively on a driver level.

One thing I think GAI lack is something similar to Euro/Universal where drivers and buses can be sent where needed it appears GAIs allocation/rostering system is too rigid and inflexible ie if there's a problem with a bus/driver there's no flexibility to cover it whereas having drivers who's duty it is to cover for unforeseen changes would make more sense.

Go Ahead used to do the same (I presume they still do), when there was nobody to drive a 59. If it was a quiet enough time of day, and the previous/next 75 were both running, they'd take a driver off the 75 to cover the 59. Or a driver might arrive into the depot to do one duty, and be asked if they wouldn't mind doing another one because whoever was supposed to do the 59, 111 or 185 rang in sick at the last minute.

Interworking is generally a disaster, and should only be used to cover breaks. It might work elsewhere, where buses have proper infrastructure and don't spend the whole time queuing in traffic, but it's ludicrous that someone living in Ballyogan should have to wait over an hour for a bus from Cornelscourt, just because there's heavy traffic on a totally different route in Nutgrove or Bray.

Go Ahead planned on having several outstations at the beginning, but for whatever reason (restrictive planning laws being a big one), it never happened.

NTA don't have have a say who they award a contract too has to be awarded to that offers the best deal on paper under EU law. Whether that works in reality is a different story.

If only the tendering process in Ireland was half as open to the public as it is in some continential countries...

I'll just leave this here!!

To be fair most DB cancellations and curtailments in my experience are marked as such on the TFI app.

I have plenty of embarrassing screenshots of DB problems too not least this one from a few weeks back.

The app tells me the last two 45a's from Dun Laoghaire are cancelled too. Which I find hard to believe. Also, it'd make no sense, as the last three 75s are supposedly all running. Can't be that difficult to persuade or bribe someone to switch.

The curtailments and cancellations on DB routes right now have nothing to do with excessive loadings or busy long routes, but everything to do with a lack of drivers. It’s widespread across the network. The example I posted is the worst that I’ve seen, but daily I see cancelled and curtailed services on the 14, 15, 15b (three in a row one evening), and the 26 in particular. That never happened before.

As it happens, as a long term user of the 16, I would have to disagree with you - in my experience it does have enough running time. Sure if there is something on in Croke Park there will be problems, but there wasn’t on that evening. It was a normal weekday evening.

That snapshot above was caused by staff shortages and nothing else. With only four buses operating the southern half of the route over a 90 minute period on a weekday, it would cause serious problems.

The reality is that the driver shortage is normally less obvious on DB routes normally because they have fewer low frequency routes compared to GAI, but to suggest that everything will suddenly be rosy if DB took over, is kidding yourself.

There is a real shortage of staff across the sector right now, but GAI take it to new levels.

I suggest that you look at the BE service updates page. The levels of regular cancellations in the northwest (Donegal, Sligo and Mayo) in particular, and regularly in Waterford too is massive, with entire routes cancelled on certain days.

As for back in the day, the 17, 18 and 75 were not exactly strong performers with regular cancellations when DB had them. They left the 75 to rot with an unachievable timetable for years, and that destroyed consumer confidence.

The problem was that the damage was already long done in terms of passenger confidence by DB not fixing the 75 timetable quickly enough. This is before the NTA became actively involved in timetabling services.

I should know as I spent several years attempting to commute on the 75, and it was a disaster.

DB took far too long to respond to the problems and plenty of people just gave up on it and indeed the 17.

You only have to read comments years later here and on social media to realise that.

It never was repaired. Many people gave up and the current situation will just cause even more people to.

One thing I will say which isn't a defence of either DB or GAI is that nearly every public transport operator in the developed world is suffering from staff shortages.

Absolutely. The implementation of the Bus Connects network redesign should be put on hold until the current staffing shortages at least ease somewhat.

Again the problem with the NTA is its being run by lifelong civil servants none of which have public transport operational experience.

Agreed. Dublin Bus knew what they were doing. GAI and NTA hadnt a clue. Pre GAI there was only a handful of 185 buses into Palermo in Bray everyday. GAI came in and made it every half hour and made every hourly bus from Enniskerry divert througn Palermo. Both completely unneecessary and stupid.

Is this fleet transfer not to facilitate the expansion of southside orbital routes S4, S6 and S8?

(I am ignoring the elephant in the room of there being insufficient drivers).

If the Streetlites are leaving GAI soon; I would assume if this is for the launch of the S routes. Are the Streetlites going to the L25 with Dublin Bus?